Early Gibson J35 specs (and Jumbo, Trojan) in The Vintage Corner Forum

0 Points

Forum Jump

Early Gibson J35 specs (and Jumbo, Trojan)

Author	Comment
WVfiddler	Early Gibson J35 specs (and Jumbo, Trojan)	Lead	[-]
06/28/11 1:26 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None I'm new here, but have been reading the great Gibson information on this forum for a while. I've just finished going through the old J35 posts that I could find and there is a lot of info there, but I'm still curious to learn more about the early stages of the Gibson Jumbo bodied guitars going from the Jumbo into the J35. I have a wreck of a guitar that is usually identified as a Trojan. tpbiii recently started a thread with his thoughts on Trojan specs. I'm hoping some of the folks here who have researched these 30's guitars can help to define the transition coming from the Jumbo. Here are a few of my conclusions (guesses is probably more like it): 1. Jumbos all had 3 tone bars, and most Jumbos (but not all) were scallop braced. 2. Trojans and all early J35's had 3 tone bars and none were scallop braced. 3. The first of these guitars (usually identified as Trojans) had the less tapered body of the Jumbo. Do we have any idea of how many really had this feature? Any later outliers? Mine seems to be an outlier (I think it is 1937) with regards to other Trojan features (no back binding, smaller sound hole, early style french heel), but has the more tapered body as on a standard J35. When I see guitars described as Trojans, this aspect is often not mentioned. Here's another '37 from the J35 registry that looks to be without back binding, but this one has the round heel. Not sure about the sound hole size. I'm curious what others are known with these sort of features. Can we assume Gibson is just using up parts? Mark
tpbiii		#1	[-]
06/28/11 7:11 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I guess I already talked about this, so I won't go on and on. Just a couple of points. 1. Jumbos all had 3 tone bars, and most Jumbos (but not all) were scallop braced I don't know, but our '35 Jumbo has three unscalloped braces. 2. Trojans and all early J35's had 3 tone bars and none were scallop braced. As far as I know this is correct. 3. The first of these guitars (usually identified as Trojans) had the less tapered body of the Jumbo. Do we have any idea of how many really had this feature? Any later outliers? If you take into account what Joe Spann found that the FONs were restarted several times (yearly?) in the late 30s, then my guess is the order of the batches was: 960B, 961B, 1023B, 1028B, 1032B, 1042B, 1071C, 1284C, 1323C, 78C, 91C, 124C, 377C, 442C, 459C. 466C, 877C. 960B and 961B were certainly Trojans -- called that at the time by Gibson. I know that the guitar I got to examine in 1284C appeared to have the same specs as 960B except for the fairly minor difference of a beveled neck block in 960B and not in 1284B. Now it becomes a game of semantics. If you accept 1284C as a Trojan, then my guess was there were probably 8 or 9 batches of Trojans -- we know 78C was not. If you exclude 1284B because of its neck block, then there are probably between 2 (known) and 7 batches depending on when the square neck block appeared. Probably only a few very early batches were called Trojans in the shipping logs. As long as I am speculating, it is easy to speculate that the rounded heel came with the change in body dimensions. This would be a clean shift from the early Trojan/Jumbo35 standard to the more modern AJ body standard, but with Gibson, who knows? I'll be quite now. Best, -Tom THE OFFICIAL UNOFFICIAL MARTIN GUITAR GEEK CLUB Last Edited By: tpbiii 06/28/11 7:14 PM. Edited 1 times.
Folkway Music		#2	[-]
06/28/11 9:39 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tom's info is consistent with my take on things. Note that the Jumbo's triple tone-bars were not scalloped (nothing being made by Gibson was), and that any Jumbos with scalloped braces were likely modified. Mark Stutman Martin Warranty Repair-Guy, Folkway Music (.com)
WVfiddler		#3	[-]
06/28/11 10:30 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	tpbiii wrote: I guess I already talked about this, so I won't go on and on. Just a couple of points. 1. Jumbos all had 3 tone bars, and most Jumbos (but not all) were scallop braced I don't know, but our '35 Jumbo has three unscalloped braces. I thought I remembered somebody saying their Jumbo was unscalloped, now I remember it was a comment by you in one of the discussions here. Some were definitely scalloped (I saw pictures of one today). 3. The first of these guitars (usually identified as Trojans) had the less tapered body of the Jumbo. Do we have any idea of how many really had this feature? Any later outliers? If you take into account what Joe Spann found that the FONs were restarted several times (yearly?) in the late 30s, then my guess is the order of the batches was: 960B, 961B, 1023B, 1028B, 1032B, 1042B, 1071C, 1284C, 1323C, 78C, 91C, 124C, 377C, 442C, 459C. 466C, 877C. 960B and 961B were certainly Trojans -- called that at the time by Gibson. I know that the guitar I got to examine in 1284C appeared to have the same specs as 960B except for the fairly minor difference of a beveled neck block in 960B and not in 1284B. Now it becomes a game of semantics. If you accept 1284C as a Trojan, then my guess was there were probably 8 or 9 batches of Trojans -- we know 78C was not. If you exclude 1284B because of its neck block, then there are probably between 2 (known) and 7 batches depending on when the square neck block appeared. Probably only a few very early batches were called Trojans in the shipping logs. I like your batch list; it makes a lot of sense. I think we can add 928B to the list. That was the Flipitfast guitar shown in this thread. He mentions in his description that the body is the less tapered Jumbo style, and a picture of the neck block showing the FON is in the thread linked above. We know there were at least 17 guitars in the 960B batch. Now for a few discrepancies. 1284C can't have been one of the 39 originally called Trojans since it was made in 1937. So there's one outlier with a Jumbo size body. 961B-10 has the more tapered J35 body (according to the dealer who had it). If it is a Trojan, then we don't have an entirely consistent model with that name. 961B-10appears to be a twin to my guitar, but mine is stamped with a C (my best guess for the FON on mine is 466-C), so should be mid-1937. As long as I am speculating, it is easy to speculate that the rounded heel came with the change in body dimensions. This would be a clean shift from the early Trojan/Jumbo35 standard to the more modern AJ body standard, but with Gibson, who knows? 961B and my guitar are exceptions to that; both have the French heel, but more tapered body depth. That's what makes it fun with Gibsons isn't it?
WVfiddler		#4	[-]
06/28/11 10:38 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Folkway Music wrote: Tom's info is consistent with my take on things. Note that the Jumbo's triple tone-bars were not scalloped (nothing being made by Gibson was), and that any Jumbos with scalloped braces were likely modified. Mark Stutman Hi Mark, Your post appeared while I was writing mine. We talked a couple days ago about Jumbos (and your J35's). So, were the Advanced Jumbos the first Gibsons with scalloped braces? And when we're talking about scalloped braces are we talking about the X and the tone bars? Mark
mylescdavis		#5	[-]
06/29/11 1:43 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	WVfiddler wrote: As long as I am speculating, it is easy to speculate that the rounded heel came with the change in body dimensions. This would be a clean shift from the early Trojan/Jumbo35 standard to the more modern AJ body standard, but with Gibson, who knows? 961B and my guitar are exceptions to that; both have the French heel, but more tapered body depth. That's what makes it fun with Gibsons isn't it? FWIW, my '37 J-35 has the French heel, back binding, and three unscalloped tone bars.
littlewingsn		#6	[-]
06/29/11 5:12 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Folkway Music wrote: Note that the Jumbo's triple tone-bars were not scalloped (nothing being made by Gibson was), and that any Jumbos with scalloped braces were likely modified. Mark Stutman What about early (34) Smecks ? My RG is scalloped (tone bars) , and seems to be consistent with others.
tpbiii		#7	[-]
06/29/11 9:25 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	961B-10 has the more tapered J35 body (according to the dealer who had it). If it is a Trojan, then we don't have an entirely consistent model with that name. I find that very surprising -- my first thought was the dealer may have been wrong. I think Folkways had one from this batch -- maybe Mark can comment. I will say this. Before I figured out that our guitar was "the" Trojan, I wondered if it did or did not have a tapered body. The original article gave me the impression that there may have been no taper at all, and ours certainly is tapered -- small, but clearly there. Now of course I understand, but a good dealer would have mentioned a taper, even if small. As to 928, now that you mention it, I remember that too. Batch 928 in 1937 shows up as a ES-150, but as great as Joe Spann's data is, it still has holes. What about early (34) Smecks ? My RG is scalloped (tone bars) , and seems to be consistent with others. Both our '36 SD and 34/35 RG have two unscalloped tone bars. I say 34/35 because the batch (65) shows up in 1934 but is date stamped with an A. This has lead Joe Spann to speculate that the batch was started in 34 and finished in 35. So, were the Advanced Jumbos the first Gibsons with scalloped braces? And when we're talking about scalloped braces are we talking about the X and the tone bars? Actually our 1936 AJ has three unscalloped tone bars. I will say this -- it is the only one like this I have ever been able to document. What an alphabet soup is Gibson! Let's pick, -Tom THE OFFICIAL UNOFFICIAL MARTIN GUITAR GEEK CLUB Last Edited By: tpbiii 06/29/11 9:51 AM. Edited 1 times.
WVfiddler		#8	[-]
06/29/11 10:19 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	tpbiii wrote: 961B-10 has the more tapered J35 body (according to the dealer who had it). If it is a Trojan, then we don't have an entirely consistent model with that name. I find that very surprising -- my first thought was the dealer may have been wrong. I think Folkways had one from this batch -- maybe Mark can comment. I will say this. Before I figured out that our guitar was "the" Trojan, I wondered if it did or did not have a tapered body. The original article gave me the impression that there may have been no taper at all, and ours certainly is tapered -- small, but clearly there. Now of course I understand, but a good dealer would have mentioned a taper, even if small. Hopefully, Mark (Folkways) will jump in on that one. That is the 961 guitar I was speaking of. I talked to him about "Trojans" when I bought mine. He said that the two he'd had (mine and 961B-10) both had the J35 more tapered body, not the Jumbo style body. He mentioned it here at one point also, but I think it slipped by without much notice. My apologies Mark if I have any of that wrong. In reading the old threads I saw a comment (from Willi, think. Can't find it at the moment) that mentioned 960 and 961 probably being "twin" batches that were made together, and that could account for the 39 guitars mentioned in Gibsons records. Leaving batch 928 out for the moment (see below), that seems like a plausible explanation that covers what we know about these guitars. Now the only anomaly is that at least one of those guitars (and I think the only 961 guitar we have info on) is described as having the later style body. Looking at the variable specs on some of the following guitars, that doesn't seem like a huge surprise. The model is in transition. Parts is parts, and they seemed to use what they had. As to 928, now that you mention it, I remember that too. Batch 928 in 1937 shows up as a ES-150, but as great as Joe Spann's data is, it still has holes. I noticed that this morning too, so went back and looked at the picture of that guitar again in this thread (same is linked in my earlier post). Here's the picture of the neck block that was posted. Now I'm wondering if that number might be something different. Maybe 1028B.That would fit with the known J35'ish batches, and isn't much later. Mark
yiannis71		#9	[-]
06/29/11 11:50 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Actually our 1936 AJ has three unscalloped tone bars. I will say this -- it is the only one like this I have ever been able to document. I know of another similar AJ that a fellow UMGF owns here in EU. It's one of my dream to have guitars. Best, Yiannis www.yiannisguitar.com
tpbiii		#10	[-]
06/29/11 12:08 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I know of another similar AJ that a fellow UMGF owns here in EU. It's one of my dream to have guitars. Wow Yiannis, I'd love to make contact with him. Ours was a export, originally shipped to South Africa. All the best, -Tom THE OFFICIAL UNOFFICIAL MARTIN GUITAR GEEK CLUB
ZONIAN69		#11	[-]
06/29/11 1:12 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	What about early (34) Smecks ? My RG is scalloped (tone bars) , and seems to be consistent with others. The original '34 Smecks that I have seen have scalloped X braces and two scalloped tone bars. Ex. - Stage Deluxe FON 881, Radio Grande FON 888, Radio Grande FON 991. I have not seen an original post - '34 (A suffix or later) Smeck with scalloped bracing.
tpbiii		#12	[-]
06/29/11 1:23 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have not seen an original post - '34 (A suffix or later) Smeck with scalloped bracing. That is actually consistent with what has been said. When we were thinking about getting a RG, we got quite a large number of opinions about their sound. A number of the people with opinions were pretty experienced, and I had played a couple myself. What was remarkable is how different these guitars were reported to sound. If they really were making major bracing changes such as this suggests, that would certainly explain the noise. Let's pick, -Tom THE OFFICIAL UNOFFICIAL MARTIN GUITAR GEEK CLUB
WVfiddler		#13	[-]
06/29/11 7:34 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'm still curious to sort out some of the things discussed earlier (I think we made a lot of progress). But since we've gotten into my dream guitar (Advanced Jumbo). Can someone clarify if these have the same (wide) string spacing at the bridge as the J35's of the same vintage? Also, I've also seen mention of a slightly different body size (width at the center, I think) for the AJ (than the J35). I've thought that must have just been less than clear writing. Is there any difference in body size between an Advanced Jumbo and a standard J35?
WVfiddler		#14	[-]
06/29/11 9:34 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Sorry, double post. The UMGF pages have been timing out on me regularly for the past day or so. I think when I refreshed the time out, it caused a second posting. Last Edited By: WVfiddler 06/30/11 11:24 AM. Edited 1 times.

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Add Reply

Founded by Steve Stallings. The Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum is an independent Internet forum which is not in any manner related to or affiliated with C. F. Martin & Co., (The Martin Guitar Company) Nazareth, PA. The statements and opinions expressed in the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum are solely those of the individuals posting the same and are not those of C.F. Martin & Co., The Martin Guitar Company, the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum, its administrators, moderators, agents and other voluntary staff, its supporters, financial or otherwise, or its members, guests or other contributors. The Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum does not sponsor or endorse any product or service referred to, submitted or suggested by any member, guest or contributor to the Forum. The Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum and its voluntary staff shall have no responsibility or liability whatsoever to any person or organization with respect to any matter posted by any individual on the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum, for the deletion of any such matter, for the content thereof, or for the banning, suspension or other sanctioning of any user from this Forum, or for the denial of an application to become a member of this Forum. The content and accuracy of any post are solely the responsibility of the member making the post. The Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum shall further not be responsible for references or links to other Internet sites or links contained on other Internet sites to the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum or to the UMGF, or for the contents thereof. This specifically includes the CafePress Store for UMGF Memorabilia, which is not owned, operated or controlled by the UMGF but by Cafepress.com, an independent organization which markets, sells and ships the items contained in the CafePress Store and retains the proceeds therefrom. The sole function of the UMGF with respect thereto is to provide a link for the convenience of its members. By using, browsing or consulting this Forum, you consent to the foregoing terms as well as to the guidelines set forth in the Forum Guidelines and Feedback section and the general terms of use of Yuku. The exclusive venue for proceedings against the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum, its members, trustees, officers or Administrators is the Superior Court, Hunterdon County, New Jersey, and any such proceeding shall be governed by New Jersey law. No damages or monetary awards of any nature, including attorneys fees or punitive damages may be assessed against the UMGF, its members, trustees, officers or Administrators under any circumstances whatsoever.

Yuku free message boards

Early Gibson J35 specs (and Jumbo, Trojan)

Early Gibson J35 specs (and Jumbo, Trojan)