Nitro vs Varnish vs Satin Finishes.....what's the real deal?

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magictwanger	Nitro vs Varnish vs Satin Finishes.....what's the real deal?	Lead	[-]
(07/03/09 11:15 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Ok,so I've seen some folks go nuts over some offerings with Varnish finishes.They like it ALOT!! Thinner application for better sound,or so it is said.Understandable,I guess....but ...Satin finishes are thin too,and amongst my four gits,one "is" a satin dread,which I admit sounds really good.........But so do my Nitro guitars.Yes,all new. I have not been able to try out a Varnish guitar(just to educate myself)and the "thing" that makes me scratch my head is that the "Gold Standard" in Guitardom were the old Martins(those I've played,and getting past the knocks and dents,they DO sound amazing).No Varnish,and no Satin back then from these "standard bearers"........Right? Ok,the Nitro at the time was a bit different,but why the zeal for these new Varnish gits?...AND if it is the thinner finish,why not a Satin one,which is usually thinner to begin with...Surely it would be less costly(I hate using the word cheap) - best to all
Brent Hutto		#1	[-]
(07/04/09 5:25 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Modern satin finishes (UV cured or catalyzed lacquers) are the same thickness as gloss ones, just with different additives to make them matte instead of shiny. A particular guitar's finish is either thin or thick depending on how it was applied. You can get ultra-thin modern poly finishes with sufficient skill in application and you can get quite thick nitro finishes from an uncareful factory application. An exception would be something like French Polish that is pretty darned thin any way you apply it. The word "varnish" can cover a wide range of finishing materials. Long oil, short oil "spirit varnish", and it and be thick, thin or in between. Look at the amount of "spar varnish" on some parts of wooden boats. Be careful conflating marketing-speak with actual characteristics of the material. The connection is usually tenuous. And if you ask a violin maker about finishes, I don't think nitrocellulose lacquer will even make the list of fine instrument finishes. After all, that's not what those dead Italians used 400+ years ago. Many guitar builders would not consider old-Martin-style nitro to be the gold standard at all. Personally, as a guitar buyer and not builder, I think the gold standard is an ultra-thin finish of whatever material the builder thinks will work best. The thinness matters, the material not so much.
Peter Cree		#2	[-]
(07/04/09 6:00 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Finishes 101. Varnish (on guitars).................is a type of spar varnish that takes quite a while to cure. Its applied over top of a shellac undercoat and then French polished on its top to give a consistent sheen. It tends to be thicker than a nitro finish. One of its attributes is it rounds out the sound of "bright " guitars , like Collings. Or like some mandolins...........Will Kimble comes to mind. One of the best qualities of nitro is its ability to shed itself of molecular weight as time goes by. Its self thinning. Its fairly hard and does protect the wood better than shellac. Old nitro finishes are some of the best sounding on earth. Shellac when hand applied by a cloth and wool ball is called French Polish (only shellac)and is the thinnest of the group. A delicate and very transparent sound. I've come to love shellac finishes in general and have gone to airbrushing thinned shellac to the guitars that need it. Its brittle, easy to sand and level and will polish beautifully by hand. Easy to repair, easy to screw up. As to violins or bowed instruments, the idea is to dampen and round the sound. A type of Damar or even Spar varnish is used. Spar differs from standard varnish by its use of raw linseed which never entirely hardens. Thats why its used on boats and in sun. A true varnish is a finish that can't be dissolved (after drying)in its own solvent. Turps or mineral sprits can clean or thin varnish when wet but will do nothing to the finish when dry. a good furniture varnish is getting hard to find. Cree Studios Amazing Stuff creestudios.com my music Neda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jhowell39		#3	[-]
(07/04/09 7:59 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Peter Cree wrote: ... a good furniture varnish is getting hard to find. Peter-- I've had good luck with Pratt and Lambert No 38, though it is not carried by all P&L dealers. Works as an instument finish also, very much like Behlen's Rock Hard. Martin 000-15S / Dobro F-60 / Yairi WY-1K / Yamaha LS 500 Yamaha LL 500 / Yamaha FG 150 / Godin Flat 5X
Peter Cree		#4	[-]
(07/04/09 8:07 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks for the tip. A lot of states are clamping down the sale of straight varnish. to add a bit............the UV polyesters have never been a favorite since they are so hard and unchanging. I always thought they are a detriment to the sound of Larrivees and Taylors. I have scraped the stuff off of tops before and replaced with nitro and shellac. Larri's especially improve greatly by doing this. Taylors do as well but they tend to be so over built that finish reduction doesn't make THAT much difference though my 355 has a deeper low end than most and I attribute that to the nitro. Catalyzed lacquers with suspended particulate are an ok finish. The satin is noisy , to me, and begs for polishing. When dry they act the same as any other lacquer. Cree Studios Amazing Stuff creestudios.com my music Neda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bryankimsey		#5	[-]
(07/04/09 9:35 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Peter Cree wrote: Finishes 101. Excellent- thanks! I've used FP shellac a bit and am currently finishing a new Telecaster neck with shellac. All my personal guitars except the Huss/Dalton (which I'm keeping mostly stock) have FP neck shafts. And FWIW, when I've been able to A/B varnish vs. lacquer mandolins of the same builder and same woods, I've preferred the lacquer sound. Bryan Kimsey http://www.bryankimsey.com Coram Deo
Peter Cree		#6	[-]
(07/04/09 10:01 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I thinke the nitro sound is more open as well. As for FP...............I can go through all that complication and work and ordering buttons and finding grain alc. etc or I can simply clarify Zinnser and airbrush. I think the result is better on some level. Interesting that you use FP on necks. To get that dry feel is so dificult. I can see sealing with shellac and letting the wood breath a bit but sweat would reduce the FP and hand oils would replace that.............what I'm saying is many companies are moving to UV Poly on necks to avoid the after market sticky neck problem. Using the UV would make for a plastic coated neck, which would always feel like....plastic. The FP would seal, then be replaced by human oils as it wears.........hmmm........ I'd like to just sand necks and seal them that way. Maybe thats a very good answer to the sticky neck problem. Not for factory use though. interesting too, that I liked nitro in the Rockie's dry climate since it acted like a high tech shellac. Here in the East......finishing is crazy. Nitro is a total pain and shellac has become my finish of choice since it dries fast, is very easy to repair, is far more forgiving than nitro, and at the end of the day is more fragile than nitro but performs at least as well and is easier to repair. Questions? Cree Studios Amazing Stuff creestudios.com my music Neda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Peter Cree		#7	[-]
(07/04/09 10:04 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	ps......you can use Mohawk's powdered stains/pigments mixed into any finish to tint. They do very very well with shellac so getting that vintage Fender color (lt. brown cherry) is fairly easy. Cree Studios Amazing Stuff creestudios.com my music Neda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Howard Klepper		#8	[-]
(07/04/09 11:09 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Peter Cree wrote: Finishes 101. Varnish (on guitars).................is a type of spar varnish that takes quite a while to cure. Its applied over top of a shellac undercoat and then French polished on its top to give a consistent sheen. It tends to be thicker than a nitro finish. One of its attributes is it rounds out the sound of "bright " guitars , like Collings. Or like some mandolins...........Will Kimble comes to mind. One of the best qualities of nitro is its ability to shed itself of molecular weight as time goes by. Its self thinning. Its fairly hard and does protect the wood better than shellac. Old nitro finishes are some of the best sounding on earth. Shellac when hand applied by a cloth and wool ball is called French Polish (only shellac)and is the thinnest of the group. A delicate and very transparent sound. I've come to love shellac finishes in general and have gone to airbrushing thinned shellac to the guitars that need it. Its brittle, easy to sand and level and will polish beautifully by hand. Easy to repair, easy to screw up. As to violins or bowed instruments, the idea is to dampen and round the sound. A type of Damar or even Spar varnish is used. Spar differs from standard varnish by its use of raw linseed which never entirely hardens. Thats why its used on boats and in sun. A true varnish is a finish that can't be dissolved (after drying)in its own solvent. Turps or mineral sprits can clean or thin varnish when wet but will do nothing to the finish when dry. a good furniture varnish is getting hard to find. Much misinformation here (sorry, Peter. I love your work!). 'Varnish' as contemporary guitar makers are using the term is a short oil varnish. Spar varnish is long oil. The better guitar finishers can apply their short oil varnishes as thin as a lacquer finish, or any other film finish. [Bruce Sexauer says he can get his varnish finishes thinner than he could get lacquer, but I don't see any inherent reason why lacquer couldn't be just as thin] One often sees spar varnishes applied very thickly, since they are originally designed for marine use and build very quickly. I think this is why people have the idea that a varnish is inherently a thick finish. It is also not necessary for a spar varnish to use raw linseed (which does eventually polymerize, BTW, but quite slowly). Oil/resin varnishes (which includes the spar and short oil varnishes we are talking about) do have higher damping than nitro lacquer, but as you point out, in some cases this is desired, and it will depend on the film thickness. A .003" short oil varnish finish will likely damp less than a .006" lacquer finish. Nitro does shed molecules, but I would not call that a plus. That is why some old nitro finishes and other things made of nitrocellulose (like tuner buttons and pickguards) tend to disintegrate. A nitrated cellulose molecule is easily oxidized. When fully nitrated, it is an explosive. When less than fully nitrated (as with laqcuer) it will still tend to oxidize. Some mixes do a lot better than others. While some people call shellac French Polish (but only if it is padded, which is weird if it is the material that is being named), it is more often said that french polish names a technique, not a material. And it need not be pure shellac; sandarac, mastic, damar, etc. can be added. I think the term would be appropriately applied, by current usage (which blurs the material/technique distinction), to any spirit varnish with shellac as its main constituent that is padded on. The word 'varnish' can be so widely used that I don't know what sense there is to saying something is a "true" varnish. Spirit varnishes when cured can be dissolved in their own solvent, and while the more common usage now is to apply 'varnish' to oil-resin mixes that do not when cured dissolve in their own solvents, I haven't seen or heard them called "true" for that reason. In a broad usage, a varnish is any finish that forms a film and will build in thickness. Last Edited By: Howard Klepper 07/04/09 11:14 AM. Edited 2 times.
Peter Cree		#9	[-]
(07/04/09 11:53 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Howard with all due respect there is a difference in language terms for finishes between the US and Europe. I understand the distinctions you are making but there is a cultural distinction going on that does not necessarily mean mis -information. My work also includes owning a restoration company for 20 years (30 years total of working wood), not just doing guitar finishes. The guitar decoration came from many years of antique and fine art restoration plus fine art. I do not consider FP to be an application process.(some europeans do) Padding lacquers or varnishes are not FP in the US or in my studio. I do not call anything a varnish that when dry can be dissolved. Damar is the exception but its a term only. Some here like to market tung oil as a "rubbing varnish".....it isn't. Long oil and short oils are better terms. The fine art world uses varnish as a European term. All this is a US/European distinction of terms. I could easily call your information incorrect such as raw linseed's dry time if I only use American terminology. Don't mean to be argumentative just making the cultural distinction. Its not easy taking on the task of basic finish education. For clarity here in the US I use American terms. I'd have to write a book if I used European terms as well and make the distinctions. I know you know what you're talking about and you are very good with finishes. We discussed formulas for varnishes before. Its difficult and time consuming to educate a novice public concerning finishes. But what you guys call a varnish and what we call a varnish are two different things. I'm merely attempting to clarify N.American guitar finishes with their own terms. Cree Studios Amazing Stuff creestudios.com my music Neda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ozark1951		#10	[-]
(07/04/09 12:26 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks to all for a really interesting topic! I'm just a rolling stone, down the lost highway. Martin D18VS, Recording King RD 227 Red Bear Picks
Buck49		#11	[-]
(07/04/09 1:35 PM) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I am definitely not European, but I have to agree with Howard that varnish is a very generic term which can mean and "old fashioned" spar varnish, a poly varnish, a spirit varnish (often used on violins), or an oil varnish also somtimes used on violins. Howard's use of long oil and short oil was semi new to me, and I intend to look into that a bit. The old spirit varnishes are I believe alcohol based and perhaps not too different from shellac (maybe?). Finishes are something I am definitely not an expert in, but I do know one thing: an individual's ability to produce a good finish on an instrument or a lamp table has much to do with his experience, little to with his nomenclature, and a maybe bit more to do with the position of the moon and how he holds his mouth. This has been very interesting for me. Tom Buck
JimMerrill		#12	[-]
(07/04/09 1:48 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Guys, I would like to add a bit to what has already been said. "Varnish" has become a generic term much like "Kleenex" or "Band-aid" which are actually trade-marked Brand names. The original oil varnish as made by the apothecary producers of old never completely hardens and as has been already stated, rounds out the sound of the old violins due to it's dampening characteristics. If you visited the museum where the Amati and Stradivarius violins are kept and actually held one in your hands, the varnish would become slightly tacky from the warmth of your hands. This is in sharp contrast to "spirit" varnish which is diluted with alcohol and does get completely hard over time. If applied to a Master grade violin, it would cause the violin to sound harsh and reedy. I have been spraying nitrocellulose lacquer since 1974 and back then, we purchased it in 55 gal. drums. I have sprayed my fair share and I have an understanding of the peculiarities and idiosyncrasies of lacquer, but I do love it! As to problems with cellulose nitrate I have researched it and studied all I could get my hands on as well as communicating with people who are in the know and who have at one time, worked in factories producing what we again, generically call "celluloid". In the process of making this product, some folks would cut corners and use cheaper components. The easiest one to skimp on was water. Rather than using high quality distilled water, tap water would be used. Also, instead of higher quality alcohol which was applied with a sprinkler can ( like watering flowers ) on the block layup while still in a liquefied form, cheaper hardware store denatured alcohol would be used. Combined, these corner cutting additives would result in the problematic degrading we see today in the way of crumbling, rotting binding, pickguards, peghead overlays, and the like. Anyone ever wonder why the majority of the problems are with Gretsch and D'Angelico instruments? Where did they get their cellulose-nitrate sheet stock? From the same source as best I can tell. I still see instruments built in the turn of the century period where the plastic pieces made from cellulose-nitrate are completely stable and without any signs of falling apart. It does shrink over time as has been mentioned, but will reach a point of equalization where if no solvents are oversprayed or applied on the material, it will be fine. How else can we account for all the instruments still intact with no problems that are pushing 100 years old? Jim
guitarpath		#13	[-]
(07/04/09 3:07 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Quick question from a layman. I see people referring to a catalyzed poly finish as "plastic" (in a pejorative sense). Isn't nitro a type of "plastic" finish?
FoolForWood		#14	[-]
(07/04/09 3:18 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Good thread. Keep it comin', folks. Henk
Peter Cree		#15	[-]
(07/04/09 4:35 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm definitely coming from a different place than the luthiers above who I consider , masters of their craft. One week I'll have 18th C. pieces in the studio. (this week in fact) Next.........I'm making tables or other furniture...........next I'm repairing and restoring a 19thC. painting...............next I'll be doing finish work on an instrument and polishing.............. So you see the work I/we do is so varied that I use terminology and definitions according to my experience. You guys make and finish guitars. I defer to your information to the public about that topic. In the last thread on finishes/varnishes, I did get a couple of interesting books on materials and formulas, one from the late 19thC. Those are pretty cool. Stuff I've never seen or heard of. I'll dig that book out and post a few at some point. I think they'd surprise everyone here. I think. Cree Studios Amazing Stuff creestudios.com my music Neda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Howard Klepper		#16	[-]
(07/04/09 5:37 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"Misinformation" was too strong a word. Apologies to Peter (I didn't know you are European!). Usage does vary a lot. I do have some familiarity with the fine arts usage; as I have seen and heard the term in that context, any clear film, including the spirit varnishes, may be called a varnish. Spirit varnishes will redissolve in alcohol unless they have cured for many years, so I'm wondering where the not dissolving in their own solvent definition comes from. Any references for that?
Peter Cree		#17	[-]
(07/05/09 9:10 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I just typed up a very long reply with definitions per my studios and lost it to YUKU magic.............not gonna do it again. cheers guys, I'll be back when I have some time. Cree Studios Amazing Stuff creestudios.com my music Neda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
kcoyner		#18	[-]
(07/05/09 9:36 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I just typed up a very long reply with definitions per my studios and lost it to YUKU magic.............not gonna do it again. A very good reason to type up long responses in "Word" or other word processor then copy and paste it to YUKU box. This yuku thing can really get nasty at times. k
Peter Cree		#19	[-]
(07/05/09 10:01 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Actually it wasn't Yuku this time. My wireless is being interrupted by a neighbor's. So when I posted my connection timed out. Cree Studios Amazing Stuff creestudios.com my music Neda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Howard Klepper		#20	[-]
(07/05/09 12:50 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You have to make sure you are logged in, or YUKU will lose the post. And it logs you out occasionally for no apparent reason.

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Nitro vs Varnish vs Satin Finishes.....what's the real deal?

Nitro vs Varnish vs Satin Finishes.....what's the real deal?

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