Are boutique guitars really worth it?

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JimMerrill		#21	[-]
(06/26/09 7:47 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Frank, I believe you missed my point, though it may not have been as clear as what I intended! The "sum" of all it's parts is far more than the individually crafted pieces that are joined together and fashioned into what we understand to be a guitar. What about the heart and soul of the builder which can be imparted into the wood as he works with it? I have read from other posters where, back in the Golden Era, "Martin was a factory too", yet the information that I have indicates that it was quite different back then. One man would build the guitar's body as a complete unit which would mean that it was very nearly individually crafted. My best instruments are built when I am happiest, feeling good, and Spiritually, mentally, and emotionally at my best. Could one put that on a glitter table and use a variable pitch oscillator to evaluate the difference? I do not think so. Notice that at no point have I mentioned money. I am trying to explain the intangible element that truly makes a guitar special. That is one of the parts that needs to be included in the sum total. Jim
Mac Mechanic		#22	[-]
(06/26/09 8:58 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	dr461 wrote: My main question as a long time performer is as to whether or not the "boutique" and ultra high end small shops (e.g. Lowden, Santa Cruz, Collings, etc) really worth the money in terms of SOUND. Worth it to you? No one here but you can answer that. Worth it to other people, many of whom are accomplished guitarists? Obviously, yes. There are darned few B&H, Merrill, etc. guitars for sale in the used market, and when they are available, they don't stay available for very long. The people who buy these guitars have chosen how they want them to be built, waited for them to be built, and when the guitar finally arrives it is a cherished object. There are vintage Martins that sell for well over $50,000. Anyone who can spend that kind of money on a guitar (and who, therefore, feels it is "worth it") can probably afford a $10,000 hand-made instrument, and feel that it is worth it. Paul I may be wrong, but I'm not far from it...
NoSkils		#23	[-]
(06/26/09 10:23 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Is a $25 bottle of wine better than 2 $12.50 bottles? Is the food at a high end fancy restaurant worth 4 times as much as a nice, clean mom and pop restuarant? Is a $1,000 pair of binoculars worth it? Is the question about guitars as investments? Guitars as equipment make music? Guitars (like a fancy house or car) as a holy grail to justify one's time building up a career and a net worth? Each question may have a different answer. I buy guitars intending to play them for the rest of my life. In differentiating the cause and affect of sound from each component of a great guitar, my ear is probably not nearly as good as many of yours. However, I do know which sounds I prefer and what I would like to have. I can't afford the pre-war guitar that I'd love to have and the high end new Martins that come the closest to the sound of the Pre-War Martins now cost as much or more than small shop guitars and single man operations. I have a Collings, a Martin and a Mike Long. My next purchase will be from a single luthier and I hope to make the order within the month. It wil cost less than most Collings and the high end Martins and I hope to work with the Luthier to get the sound (and look) that I am want. Hog/adi OM, hide glue, varnish, sound port, amber burst, 1 3/4+" nut 2 5/16" at saddle, etc. Martins, Collings, Olsons, Henderson's all have their place just as two buck chuck and $100 a bottle wine have their place in the market. For me, the chance to get the custom guitar that I want and to try to get the sound that is in my head, is worth it. Therefore, I guess my answer is a confident: sometimes for some people. Paul
mikeguy53		#24	[-]
(06/26/09 4:40 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	My Franklin was.
BrazAd		#25	[-]
(06/26/09 4:47 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree with Jim based on my experiences. I had a custom dread built by one of the big name luthiers several years ago. He was suffering from burnout during that time, although I didn't know it then. He built me a beautiful guitar... but one that lacked in soul and was only average in tone. Since then he's found the revival fire of renewal and is excited about building guitars again, and I've played several recent guitars - same woods, same body size, same luthier, different timing - that blew my (since cold) custom away. On the transverse side I've had other customs built by someone who was at peace with themselves, as Jim noted, and the end results are phenomenal. There's a great quote from T.J. Thompson in the book on Wayne Henderson where he says - I'm paraphrasing here - that the person of the luthier comes through in every guitar he/she builds. I believe it, 100%. Gary
jscio		#26	[-]
(06/27/09 6:51 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"Are boutique guitars really worth it?" Yes.
BillDuck		#27	[-]
(06/27/09 6:59 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"boutique" and ultra high end small shops (e.g. Lowden, Santa Cruz, Collings, etc) I guess I never considered the builders mentioned as "ultra high end". Small factory and really quite nice, but not as high end as some of the smaller builders. Your Signature ...
Davids Harp		#28	[-]
(06/27/09 9:12 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Subject has been raised before; I suspect it is a perennial. Always worth considering, though. "Boutique" seems to cover a lot of ground here. I know a guy who owns a Collings and a Merrill (and a Martin, for all I know), and the Collings comes from a small manufacturing operation and the Merrill was made by one guy, first to last. They're both great guitars, but the scale of their manufacture is very different. I know what a Merrill is, and I know what a Martin is, but I don't know if a Collings should be grouped with Merrill or with Martin. That's why a term like "boutique" can be confusing. I know they're both great guitars. So was the one Sexauer I played, and the one Henderson, and the one or two Gallaghers. So was the one McKnight I played, and the two Rick Davis/Running Dogs. But also, so were the Huss&Daltons I've lusted after at Rudy's, and Huss&Dalton is closer to Collings than the luthiers I listed just above. They're all great guitars. But so are Martins (and Taylors, for that matter, and even many Gibsons). And they're all worth exactly what you pay for them, not a penny more or less. David They said, "You have a blue guitar, you do not play things as they are." The man replied, "Things as they are, are changed upon the blue guitar." -Wallace Stevens
ArnoldGuitar51		#29	[-]
(06/27/09 10:31 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well, next May will be 10 years since I picked up my Arnold and it is has been my main guitar since. So Yes this guitar has been well worth it to me!
magictwanger		#30	[-]
(06/27/09 3:26 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree with David's assessment.Spot on,IMO!
Flat5sub		#31	[-]
(06/27/09 10:20 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Acoustic Guitar mag has a page that lets you compare five great players on guitars from five makers: Rick Ruskin on a McAlister Don Ross on a Beneteau Doyle @%$*$ on a Taylor Laurence Juber on his Martin sig Phil Keaggy on an Olson http://www.acousticguitar.com/article/default.aspx?articleid=24041 They are all really excellent in various ways. And all suit the players' styles very well, I think. But I did come away thinking just how good the Martin sounds compared with some guitars that cost twice as much, or more. (P.S. Yuku doesn't like Doyle D y k e s, I guess.)
pope858		#32	[-]
(06/27/09 11:26 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It is the quest for the perfect, elusive, personal holy grail of acoustic guitars. Are quality acoustic guitars "worth it"? If you can play, if you can appreciate the true craftsmanship exhibited in a precisely made instrument, if the unique, individual characteristics of a true, quality product mean something to you, then yes wherever it comes from, it is worth it! But even more important, to all of us who salivate over the newest addition to the Martin catalogue, is the undeniable effect these smaller builders has had on CF Martin itself. If the boutique/small builders of today had not been willing to make 000's and OM's, vintage spec'd dreds and smaller bodied acoustics (models that CFM itself did not make), CFM might still be making 75% of their production in D-18's & 28"s. Boutique builders are also part of the second "golden age" in acoustic guitar making. The presence of these small shops, whether we ever own one of their guitars or not, has helped to increase the general quality and expand the variety of acoustic guitars available today. Paul "Ain't no money in poetry, that's what sets the poet free, I've had all the freedom I can stand" Guy Clark
David T Martin		#33	[-]
(06/28/09 2:32 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Insightful observation and comment, Paul.
ohboysabu		#34	[-]
(06/29/09 3:37 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I tend to agree with just about everything that has been said in this conversation. I would also like to point out that in some cases there is very little difference in price between Martin and the small shop builders. A case in point is my Huss & Dalton 00SP...it's a 00 size 12-fret slothead with figured mahogany back and sides and a european spruce top. Martin doesn't offer exactly the same instrument but the ones that are similar are close in price. For me, the H&D is absolutley worth it. FWIW - I also have a custom shop Martin 000 that was worth it too
lampton		#35	[-]
(06/30/09 10:16 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Keep in mind there are "boutique builders" who are not well known and who make excellent instruments. Some of these instruments can be quite the bargin even compared to the better factory made guitars. Just because a guitar is custom made does not require excessive "bling". In fact it is not always easy to find a factory guitar without fret and headstock inlays, so finding a custom builder may be the only way to get everything you want in the same instrument. Mannix 000-12, Weber Absaroka, Gibson ES-335, Vega Sonny Osborne 5 string, Vega Syle "N" tenor
imwjl		#36	[-]
(07/01/09 7:08 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Davids Harp wrote: They're all great guitars. But so are Martins (and Taylors, for that matter, and even many Gibsons). And they're all worth exactly what you pay for them, not a penny more or less. I'm always saying, and believing the value is what you're willing to pay and that many things get you into diminishing returns as your spending climbs. One thin I have noticed is that a lot of items considered premium do not get the resale value expected by the seller. As far as Martins go it seems some can be particularly good. I think of my 00 where Madisonian who posts here and I were shopping at a store I'd have to say is a seller of boutique guitars and the used 00 Martin stood out among guitars 3+ its price if tone means anything but it did not possess the trim and finish of those others. I also think of my OM-28V. I sold my OM from another maker last summer and was playing OMs thinking of another prior to that and up to buying the 28V. At about 2 years of playing $1000 - $6000 OMs and similar it took a few minutes to think I had a winner in my hands. It was interesting to learn others I know tried the same guitar and considered it great including a respected luthier in my area. So for me I'm not saying there's anything wrong with boutique builders but stand by my thinking delayed gratification and playing a lot of Martins will at least put some great guitars in your arms.
Prairie Picker		#37	[-]
(07/01/09 4:26 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Speaking as a person who has been on a specific mission for almost 5 years to find 4 affordable guitars (small body rosewood and mahogany, and D or 000 size rosewood and mahogany) that meet my tone benchmarks, I have played hundreds of guitars in all price ranges and from many different makers. It turns out that my voice benchmarks have all been established by prewar Martin's, and my search has encompassed Martin, Huss & Dalton, Santa Cruz, Collings, Wingert, Manzer, Merrill, etc. etc. During this search for the vintage sound that I prefer, I at one time had decided that I would probably never buy a new guitar again....only vintage.....that was before I ran into a Norman Blake 000-18, a Laurence Juber OMC-28M, and a killer 00-37 Koa Martin Custom with all the bling of the 2000 Steve Miller model. I own these guitars along with 3 great vintage Martins. Along the way I owned a great Petros Apple Creek D and fell in love with a couple of Merrill's that I almost purchased, but decided that I could own the real thing for about the same price if I had the patience to wait and continue searching. I focused on 1960-1964 as the current sweet spot in vintage Martins because I believe that they still had some great old growth brazilian and some wonderful mahogany and they were still using hide glue. I have been able to satisfy the two small bodies with a 63 00-18 and a 62 00-21. I am still looking for the right large brazilian and have a 1948 D-18 that is stellar. I didn't care who made the guitar as long as it satisfied my requirements but was never able to find anything but a Martin that did the job. Many were close, but not close enough. I guess my point is that I love the voices of all my guitars...old and new and if a guitar speaks to you and you can afford it, then it is worth it..... BUT I know from experience that you don't have to spend a lot of money to get a great guitar....you just have to work hard, and have patience. Read on if you want to hear an interesting story of finding a personal "Holy Grail" guitar. My most recent find is the small body brazilian that I had been after for almost 5 years. Actually it found me due to an almost 2 year old post that I put on this forum trying to find the owner of a specific 1931 00-28 that had been sold by Dreamguitars. I had saved the sound clips from this guitar and the voice of that guitar was burned indelibly into my brain. A person with a 1928 00-28 and the 1962 00-21 contacted me after seeing this OLD post and to make a long story short I was able to fly to his home, play both guitars and fly back the same day with the 62 00-21, a guitar I am so thrilled to own that I don't have words to describe it. He was willing to sell either one because he said they sounded so similar and I was able to A/B these two guitars for a few hours and found that indeed they did have almost identical tone especially in the mids and trebles. There was a subtle difference noticeable after playing them side by side in the tone of the bass strings, but the only way I could tell them apart while playing them with my eyes shut (a little experiment he had devised for my first impressions) was by their respective weights. The 62 for 1/3rd the price of the 28 was exactly what I had been looking for and proved again to me that it is possible to come very close to that "Holy Grail" sound without breaking the bank. One last observation. After listening to hundreds of guitars on websites like Dreamguitars and playing hundreds more, I have found that very few really stand out, and when they do they sell in about 1 day. They all sound good, but guitars of similar size and woods generally have similar tone, but once in a while you find one that really speaks to you and that is the one to buy.....don't hesitate.....just buy it. I generally knew within 5 minutes of playing any of my current guitars that it was going home with me. It took me a while to develop the experience to judge them and a couple of bad experiences when I went back the next day to buy a guitar and it was gone to to reach the point I am at today...... The owner of a small stable of really great guitars and a manageable GAS condition.
GEFool		#38	[-]
(07/02/09 9:26 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	RevGeo wrote: ...I've always wanted a custom made split cane fly rod. They cast no better or handle fish any better than a rod available at any fishing gear shop but they have a certain something that appeals to me. Now if I just had the do-re-mi..... Rev George Rev, as someone who owns a 'boutique' guitar, I can agree with much of what you say. I AB'd the boutique guitar with the 18GE that it ended up replacing. I loved that GE and it was a great guitar. But the Proulx that replaced it just had a tone and feel that I wanted at that time. I would have loved to keep both. I still have my LSV so, I'm not knocking Martins at all. Quite the contrary... they are superb guitars. Mario Proulx, the builder would agree. He has stated many times that Martin builds a great Martin sounding guitar. Guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla. Now... to the analogy of your bamboo fly rod. I make 'split cane' or bamboo fly rods for a hobby. Let me assure you that they provide more than a sense of 'something' that is appealing on a aesthetic basis. They are wonderful fishing tools. Quite different that the graphite or fiberglass rods you are used to. Whether this difference is something of value to you or is even preferred is up to the user. But like 'boutique' guitars, there are performance differences that make them worthwhile for many. And it's more than just the image... in both cases. Rick
David T Martin		#39	[-]
(07/02/09 11:51 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Great comments and insight, Praire Picker.
chapleau		#40	[-]
(07/02/09 5:30 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Can we take it down one level to another question. "Are Martins worth it," might be asked by solid-wood $4-600 owner "Are solid wood guitars worth it," would be the question asked by a laminate-top beater owner. "Is a guitar worth it," would be a penultimate question asked by someone without a job. "Is X worth it" is the question for the ages. Try substituting lots of phrases. Marriage Kids College Homeowning Chevys or Fords or Dodges Redheads (me, I go with "yes" on this one!) Richard in Neenach, California Three great reasons to teach? June, July, and August.

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