Are neck resets inevitable?

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BobAtlGa		#21	[-]
(06/24/09 1:08 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I've heard good things here about Bryan Kimsey, and I read his descriptions of how he does his reset...definitely sounds like the way to go, if I can get up the courage to ship my baby. Bryan did a neck reset on my 1978 D-35 a few years ago. He also did a bunch of other work on the guitar which made it sound better. I was more than happy with the results. He does stellar work at very reasonable prices. If he lived within driving distance I'd be sending him work all the time! He is highly recommended. Bob D-18 Authentic \| D-18GE \| D-18VS \| OM-18V \| 000-18GE \| Collings D1A \| Collings D2H \| D-28 Marquis \| D-35 \| Larrivee 000-60 Brazilian \| DX-1 \| LXM
Mark Lathem		#22	[-]
(06/24/09 7:17 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Arnoldgtr wrote: That is true, but the shallower body of the 000 means that there are higher forces tending to rotate the neck block... Good point. In my experience, the smaller bodies with similar bracing have about the same rate of resets as the dreadnoughts. And there we have it; thanks, John. Mark
vinylforever		#23	[-]
(06/26/09 11:41 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Buck49 wrote: No. It's not neck deformation that causes the problem...it's BODY deformation. No matter how big your neck is, the body still deforms from tension over time. Would love to learn more about body deformation. Would the bulging of the top be the main "culprit"? Or are there other parts which play a major role? William Martin: HD-28, 000-28 Norman Blake; Gibson: Custom SJ-200; Yamaha: FG-580, FG-340
Buck49		#24	[-]
(06/26/09 12:01 PM) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Would love to learn more about body deformation. Would the bulging of the top be the main "culprit"? Or are there other parts which play a major role? If the key word is "main" then yes. If you really meant "only" then no. In reality, all the parts work together like they do in most guitar things. the bottom line is not the bulging of the top, but that the bulging of the top allows the neck block to assume a "rotated position" allowing the neck to come up at a higher angle. John and I have argued about this, but I think our argument is more over nomenclature than what is really happening. The bottom line is, the neck is installed on the new body at around a 1 1/2 to 2 degree angle (not parallel to the body). Once the body deformation has occured, that angle is more parallel to the body than it should be. In a neck set, you remove the neck, alter the heel and dovetail so that the original angle is restored. This sounds like major surgery, but the angle of the neck may be moved less than 1/2 a degree in the whole operation. That's why the bulging may be so slight as to be barely visible. The advantages are that the neck angle is restored making the instrument easier to play, the saddle height can be restored resulting in a tone and volume boost, the paper (?)shims installed at the factory can be replaced with wood shims resulting in a more solid neck joint, and the luthier can make the baloon payment on his condo! Tom Buck
vinylforever		#25	[-]
(06/26/09 1:09 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks Tom for the elucidation. I think I'm beginning to get the picture. William Martin: HD-28, 000-28 Norman Blake; Gibson: Custom SJ-200; Yamaha: FG-580, FG-340
guitarfish		#26	[-]
(06/26/09 1:27 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What's the difference in the neck reset procedure for a mortise & tenon neck, as opposed to a dovetail? Both are glued, right? ------------------ Current Martin: 000C-16RGTE Aura Former Martins: DM, 000C-16GTE, DC-16GTE Check out my MARTIN FACTORY TOUR W/PICS
sfden1		#27	[-]
(06/26/09 2:34 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Posed by Tidober: I've heard good things here about Bryan Kimsey, and I read his descriptions of how he does his reset...definitely sounds like the way to go, if I can get up the courage to ship my baby." Where are you located Tidobear? There may be someone closer to you that you wouldn't have to ship to. There are a number of experienced and vey talented repair guys who post regularly on this forum, or perhaps someonehere can reccomend someone closer to you. If your anywhere near the Pacific Northwest, I highly recommend Dennis Berck in Eugene, OR. Dennis
Tidobear		#28	[-]
(06/28/09 12:11 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Dennis, I'm down on the west-central coast of Florida. The only Martin authorized luthier nearby is 2 hours away in Orlando at a place called the Guitar Factory - and I don't know anything about them! I think it's that not knowing that bothers me the most. I'm always willing to pay more bucks for a known commodity than scrimping out of convience. I'm the original owner of my guitar, so I understand the repair would be on Martins dime if I use an authorized luthier, but I wanna know what kind of work they do ahead of time! Bryan is one of those known commodities, strictly on the basis of what I've read about him, and the man obviously cares about his workmanship. That type of service I'll willing to pay for myself, or if I could find another luthier that I can feel as competent with which won't cost me anything other than transporting the guitar. Is anybody familiar with the Guitar Factory in Orlando Last Edited By: Tidobear 06/29/09 8:41 AM. Edited 1 times.
dbintegrity		#29	[-]
(06/28/09 9:57 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	While eventually the body deformation causes the need for a neck reset, would you feel once the body moves enough to require the reset, it loses some of its structural integrity and may require resets more frequently?
Arnoldgtr		#30	[-]
(06/28/09 1:10 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	would you feel once the body moves enough to require the reset, it loses some of its structural integrity and may require resets more frequently? Though that is a possibility, I haven't found it to be true generally. In most cases, the movement occurs in the first 25-30 years, then stabilizes. John
FoolForWood		#31	[-]
(06/28/09 2:50 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"Are neck resets inevitable?" Well, you could build traditional acoustic guitars that would absolutely never ever need a neck reset. The question is, would they sound any good? On the other hand, all too often do I hear remarks like "part of the game", "fact of life", "no big deal", "covered under warranty, anyway" etc. etc. And way to often do I see new guitars with borderline neck sets or even in acute need of a reset. I'm talking about virtually all brands, including Martins, although Martin is not the worst in this regard. (Some brands' necks are easier to reset than others, BTW.) IMO it is one of those few though major issues the acoustic guitar industry could really improve upon. I do realize it can make a difference whether a wooden guitar is shipped to Arizona or Louisiana for instance, but if it is kept within a reasonable humidity range, that should not be a real excuse IMO. BTW, getting a reset done under warranty is not always as easy as it may seem; if you are the original owner to begin with. And you wouldn't believe how many people don't even know what exactly neck pitch or angle means. That includes quite a few guitar store owners and staff. Not kidding. Perhaps that's why the matter is not taken as seriously as it should be. Players who find a guitar (getting) more difficult to play either don't buy it in the first place or if they did, play the thing less or sell it. And those who do know may not bother or shave the bridge or turn it into a slide guitar or bring it to a local luthier for a reset and just pay the price etc. etc. If each and every guitar with a neck pitch problem were sent back to the factory, I believe at least some of those factories would have a serious problem. In short, it's certainly not the end of the world. And I don't mean to sound negative. There are many blessings to count. But some shaping up in this regard wouldn't hurt. Henk
dbintegrity		#32	[-]
(06/29/09 6:53 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thank you John for your answer to my question. Henk...I have noticed some luthiers using more of an arch in the top, some are more pronounced than others. It makes sense that it would add structural integrity to the top and maybe even eliminate the need of a reset down the road. What do you think on that?
FoolForWood		#33	[-]
(06/29/09 8:18 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Henk...I have noticed some luthiers using more of an arch in the top, some are more pronounced than others. It makes sense that it would add structural integrity to the top and maybe even eliminate the need of a reset down the road. What do you think on that? The amount of arching is a choice. More arching will increase stiffness. So you can make the system lighterweight and end up with the same stiffness a heavier and flatter plate would have. In other words, the end result is not necessarily stiffer, if that makes sense. More arching means the apex of the top will be higher and the neck should have more back angle. This is the reason why Martin uses a back angle of about 1 1/2 degrees, maybe 2 at the very most, while Gibson (Gibson tops have a more pronounced arch) shoots for 3 degrees. Well, that seems like reasoning backwards, but that number is actually stated in the specs. Anyway, in the end it's the result that counts. The percentage of Gibsons with underset necks, at least what I've seen here in Europe, really is too high IMO. The bridge design on most, although it's not the cause, doesn't help much, either. Henk Last Edited By: FoolForWood 06/29/09 8:54 AM. Edited 1 times.
Howard Klepper		#34	[-]
(06/29/09 1:05 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Reset prevention with carbon fiber struts. It also takes a bunch of the compression load off the top, which I believe is good for sound.
Tidobear		#35	[-]
(07/02/09 12:34 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Continuing along this topic...I've got what I see as three options for an in-warranty neck reset, and I'm having trouble deciding which course to take: 1. There are no factory repair sources in close range of home...so the first option would be to drive two hours to someone I don't know anything about - my least favorite option, for the obvious reasons. 2. Send my guitar to a known repair source, but have to ship it myself, and pay for the repair - at least I would know the quality of work! The main thing I'm unsure of is the self shipping - I'm not crazy 'bout that idea. 3. Take the guitar to the local Martin dealer (why don't THEY do repairs?) and have them ship it back to the factory. This option would require the least effort and cost on MY part, but probably tie up the repair longer (I assume.) I'm probably talking myself into option 3...any strong opinions one way or another??
guitarfish		#36	[-]
(07/02/09 12:38 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Option 3 - you still have to pay shipping from dealer to factory & back. I'm in the process of that myself. Also, keep in mind - option 1 or 2 may only take a week or two, but option 3 may take 4-6 weeks or more. ------------------ Current Martin: 000C-16RGTE Aura Former Martins: DM, 000C-16GTE, DC-16GTE Check out my MARTIN FACTORY TOUR W/PICS
Buck49		#37	[-]
(07/02/09 3:57 PM) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	1. There are no factory repair sources in close range of home...so the first option would be to drive two hours to someone I don't know anything about - my least favorite option, for the obvious reasons. 2. Send my guitar to a known repair source, but have to ship it myself, and pay for the repair - at least I would know the quality of work! The main thing I'm unsure of is the self shipping - I'm not crazy 'bout that idea. 3. Take the guitar to the local Martin dealer (why don't THEY do repairs?) and have them ship it back to the factory. This option would require the least effort and cost on MY part, but probably tie up the repair longer (I assume.) With 9 service centers in Florida, I find it hard to believe that there isn't one within 2 hours of you. Where do you live, in the keys? If you are going to play guitar, you have to have repairs, so my advice is to get to know a luthier, then option 1 becomes less of a problem. The shipping part is not a problem, guitars are shipped every day...Martin ships 70 to 80 thousand guitars a year...including yours. Option 3: your dealer will probably recommend a cervice center for you, but they won't ship it unless you pay them to do it...unless your dealer has a screw loose. AND...the factory repair center has been known to do some poor repairs at times. Tom Buck
Tidobear		#38	[-]
(07/02/09 5:49 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	No, not the Keys, but the central west coast - St. Petersburg. There USED to be two repair centers within a few miles of me, but not anymore! Orlando is the closest - MapQuest says 1 hour and 47 mins...and that doesn't take the Disney World traffic into account - not a drive I'm crazy about. If I'm not impressed with the people there, my other choices are 2 1/2 to 4 hours away! Oh well, I probably should take your advice and check them out...just wish I knew something about them ahead of time...
kydave		#39	[-]
(07/02/09 6:06 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tido, I just drove my Martins 6 hours each way to go to my Martin authorized luthier. Granted, it was a friend who's worked on my D-28 for 30 years, but driving a couple hours to a authorized repair person doesn't seem like that big a deal. I'd rather do that than ship any day, if I'm going to a luthier I don't know in both cases. Just a thought, Dave Kentucky Dave's Martins: 00-28H (2006 Custom); SP000-16R (1999 Special Edition); 0000-28H (1999); D-28 (1971) myspace.davetrabue and beargrasscreek Piraticus 13:7 , , <> ^^^
Tidobear		#40	[-]
(07/03/09 8:55 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Sounds like I'm off to Orlando...I did get a good referral from one of our group here for the "Guitar Factory" so now it's not so much of an unknown. I just hate to trust my baby to people I don't know anything about, and, with Martin at least the company backing is there. This whole issue is a good example of "ignorance is bliss!" I've played guitar for 48+ years, had my only Martin for 26 years, and, until reading and inquiring here, had never even HEARD of a neck reset - didn't know such a thing was possible! I think it was Frank Ford in one of his posts that commented that resets are becoming more common, not because of faulty workmanship, but because the playing community is becoming more educated - (my paraphrasing...). That's definitely the situation with me! Guess it's time to get something done...

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