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jimagill |
Can you trust what you hear?: 'Opening Up' and other Guitar Lore |
Lead | |
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Even though I rarely post, I check in with this forum and four others at least once a day, and even a casual visitor would notice how many topics continually
return to aspects of guitar lore and the interminable wrangling over such venerable subjects as the superiority of this or that tonewood or brand or body size,
new vs. vintage, the search for a 'cannon,' 'holy grail,' or 'banjokiller' whose sustain is so great that 'it's still ringing
when I take it out of the case!' Apparently, we guitarists just love shootin' the bull about this stuff, even though it seems that most of us feel
enough like experts that our opinions on such matters, grounded in the reality of what our ears tell us, are unassailable, and though we'll allow that
everyone else is entitled to their own opinion, we're not convinced, because they just can't hear what we hear. What we hear rules, and nobody's
argument is going to trump what we can experience with our own ears. I'm no different: others are entitled to their opinion, but all that really matters TO
ME is what I hear. Only we ourselves can call into question what we hear, and I'd like to suggest that all of us do a little more of that, for the
following reasons. For the sake of argument, let's consider just one of many perennial forum topics: the phenomenon of guitars 'opening up' as they
get more age and playing time on them. For the record, I believe that 'opening up' is real, not only because I think I hear it, but because,
objectively, it seems to make sense. As wood cells age, lose moisture and resins crystallize, there would be less damping, and vibrations would pass through
them quicker and easier. Finish and glue joints cure, increasing the effect, and it seems reasonable that hours, months and years spent coaxing the wood to
produce the 12 specific tones of the western scale of music might 'train' the wood to produce those tones more easily. But can this process actually be
experienced as it happens? Although a new instrument's sound does change noticeably in the first few days after it is initially strung up, it stabilizes
fairly quickly, and most would agree that what we usually mean by 'opening up' takes months or years, so experiencing any change in sound requires
comparing it to our memory of much earlier states, and this is where the slope first begins to get slippery. We say we can hear a guitar opening up because it
sounds different (usually better, whatever that means) now than when it was new. But we can't compare by going back to hear it again when it was new, so
how can we really know? To compare the sound now to the sound then, we have to rely on our memory of what it used to sound like, and problems arise
immediately. First is the obvious fact that our ears now are not the same as our ears then. It's well-documented that we tend to lose some perception of
higher frequencies as we age. Also, our guitar tastes may have changed over the years, making it sound more (or less) appealing to us now than it did then.
Then there is the phenomenon of 'psycho-acoustics', where we tend to hear what we want, expect or are predisposed to hear. From my reading of the posts
here and on other guitar forums, I believe we guitarists are particularly prone to this condition. And of course, some of us may simply not remember things as
well as we used to. I've also found that some of my own memories tend do be more situational than I realized. For example, the best beer I ever tasted was
a Dutch brand called Oranjeboom I had when I was 18. I think I remember it as 'the best' because I was in a rathskeller in Frankfurt, my first time in
Germany, and I was able to successfully order my meal of wienerschnitzel and a beer, in German, without being asked my age. In that exotic setting I felt
mature, capable, independent and exhilarated by the moment. Everything about the dinner made it a peak experience, and there is no beer I've had since
(including another Oranjeboom) that I enjoyed more than that one. Similarly, the "Best Guitar I Ever Played" was an early '30's Martin 00-28
or 00-21 at Gruhn Guitars around 1982, which sold for the fabulous sum (at the time) of $4000. It was just the brand, body size and woods I coveted at the
time, it sounded better to me than all the other great guitars there in the store, and the price put it well beyond the reach of a struggling road musician
like myself, making it all the more desirable, and all the more mythical in my imagination. I've played quite a few 00's of similar vintage since then,
but none of them jazzed me in the same way, and none of the great, better-sounding guitars I've played since have matched that experience, either. A memory
of our guitars when new may similarly be flavored by the excitement of acquiring them, what they cost and what we may have had to do to pay for them, how long
we had to wait for them, how they compared to other guitars we own, etc. I know I've remembered that amazing little 00 at Gruhn Guitars many times, and
here's where another problem arises. Evidence from neuroscience suggests that once a memory is created, each time it is recalled it changes slightly, and
since we always recall the most recent (changed) version of it, the more we recall it, the more it changes. To learn more about this phenomenon, listen to the
RadioLab episode on "Memory and Forgetting" at , or check out the work of Dr. Yadin Dudai at and Dr. Elizabeth Loftus . Memories, it turns out, are
quite malleable. As Dr. Karim Nader says, "When a memory is retrieved, it is transformed into a vulnerable state in which it can be lost, changed or
strengthened." The memory of a guitar's sound when new changes based on a number of factors including our perception of how it sounds now, whether we
believe the 'opening up' process has occurred, whether we like the change or not (Norman Blake told of a guitar he had to 'rest' a few years
because the sound had become 'too loose') and whatever other nuggets of guitar lore we happen to subscribe to. So, when we're trying to discern
subtle qualitative differences in a guitar's sound over time, what can we really say with certainty? Well, subjectively, if I hear it, then it's real -
for me. What we know can be objectively tested, duplicated and verified by others; all the rest is simply what
we believe, so even though I believe 'opening up' to be true, as an objective phenomenon, there's
too much uncertainty in the methodology for me to say that I know 'opening up' to be true. It's precisely because there is no definitive, objective
proof that might resolve the issue, that debate about 'opening up' and other aspects of guitar lore rages on. Personally, I think it's this
ambiguity, permitting us all to spout off with relative impunity, that we most enjoy, and keeps forums like this one chuggin' along. So, the next time any
of us feels the urge to climb up on the old guitar soapbox and lay down the law on some issue of sound quality, or set matters straight on someone else's
preposterous declaration, based on our own considerable experience and finely-tuned ears, before we type anything, let me gently suggest we should give pause,
because there's enough factual evidence to indicate we should all take what our ears and memory tell us with a very big grain of salt. As a popular
bumpersticker has it: "Don't Believe Everything You Think."
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GlenbenGurian |
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Hear hear. |
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RevGeo.stefangrossmans... |
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Yeah, but when all is said and done all we have is our ears and our memory. Good enough for me.
Rev George
And each wished he could pick a guitar, because it is a gracious thing.
John Steinbeck |
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Peter Cree |
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Hard to get through your post without paragraphs but my response has always been similar to Rev. Geo's. I also add, "yeah ,but can you play?"
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kydave |
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I'd love to read that, but without paragraphs it's too much work. I think I agree with much of what you say, though... maybe after more coffee I can
tackle it.
Kentucky Dave's Martins: 00-28H (2006 Custom); SP000-16R (1999 Special Edition);
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gatorski |
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For the record, I believe that 'opening up' is real, not only because I think I hear it, but because, objectively, it seems to make sense. As wood cells age, lose moisture and resins crystallize, there would be less damping, and vibrations would pass through them quicker and easier. Finish and glue joints cure, increasing the effect, and it seems reasonable that hours, months and years spent coaxing the wood to produce the 12 specific tones of the western scale of music might 'train' the wood to produce those tones more easily.For the sake of discussion, I could easily be convinced that what makes sense to you makes no sense at all to me. First, before wood is worked, it is allowed to dry (or forced to). If a guitar was made of green (wet) wood, it would crack during manufacturing. Also, we talk about guitars sounding different during high humidity than during arid periods, so the wood must be absorbing moisture as well as drying. This makes more sense; the guitar is trying to find equilibrium with its environment. So, myth 1 busted, the guitar does not continue to dry out over time. Second - resins crystalize. I don't know anything about this, but if conventional wisdom had it that resins are crystalized within one week of manufacture, I'd accept that as easily as resins continue to crystalize over several years. Same argument for finish and glue joints. That the wood somehow gets trained to produce more mellifuous tones by years of producing those tones is like saying the wood in my house gets stronger the longer its holding my house up. Somehow, all those sagging roofs on old houses make me doubt that's happening. My point is that you accept the reality of these phenomena to support a belief that you choose to have. A different belief may lead you to different supporting beliefs. There's must be a word for that (beside the two forbidden topics!). My guitars sound better over time because I constantly learn how to better evoke their best characteristics. |
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Michael Segui |
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jimagill wrote: I added some paragraphs to the OP to make it an easier read. Mike
Michael
Segui
Est. 1974 "I too was once penniless." |
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jimagill |
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Thanks to Michael for adding paragraph breaks. My original text HAD paragraph breaks, but they didn't show up in the post, and the softwre wouldn't
allow me to make edits - very frustrating. Also, my original text had URLs (which didn't show up in the post either) which I cited for the following:
RadioLab: , Dr. Yadin Dudai at , and Dr. Elizabeth Loftus . Jim
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jimagill |
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OK, the URLs didn't show up this time either. One more try... RadioLab- http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/, Dr. Yadin Dudai-http://www.weizmann.ac.il...obiolo...dai/dudai.html, and Dr. Elizabeth Loftus-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Loftus
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kydave |
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OK, more coffee, more paragraphs and more understanding of the post...
The gist of what you're saying seems to be that appreciation of acoustic guitar sounds is subjective enough given the human condition that there is no right or wrong answer to the way a human hears, feels, describes and remembers (and consequently relates) their perception of acoustic guitar sound as relates to "opening up." Consequently, take everything everyone says, including ourselves, with a large grain of salt. Hmmm, sounds like a typical day's discussion on the Forum. Thanks, Dave Kentucky Dave's Martins: 00-28H (2006 Custom); SP000-16R (1999 Special Edition);
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kmacguitar |
Thanks Mike and also thanks for the thought going into the post... | ||
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and yes, I think there are maybe about half dozen "old wives tale" level truths that constantly get thrown out here and I'd be gald to read
fewer, that said, this forum is terrific in it's acceptance of us shooting off our mouths without getting slapped for doing it. It's the right balance
of critical vs acceptance even if it means reading thru a certain ammount of overgeneralization. Your exapmle "opening up" doesn't resonate with
me as I only buy used guitars. I'm prepared to believe it's real, just don't care.
A couple of your points: "pseudo acoustice" or placebo effect is huge, agree, always take a good comparison guitar if you think you're gonna buy. "music memory" or whatever it's called seems to me to be "relative to how I hear a guitar compared to my internal concept of good-bad at the time". So, my current sense of the algebra of (loudness/bass response/sustain/balance/playability/sweetness/mystery attraction-repulsion) is changeable, although it's been fairly consistent (for me) over a long period of time. My taste has changed, and I'm with you on this, because I listen to my senses and not what folks tell me I should like. Roughly, I switched from liking straight braced to scalloped braced tops (another overused generalization but one that holds up pretty well, note I said tops not guitars, not rosewood). Well 'nuff said, Kerry |
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tonguy |
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The older I get, the better I used to sound.
And, as Paul Klipsch used to say, "Our creator saw fit to give us two ears and one mouth, and they should be used in those proportions."
Tony
(Forum intro - page 11) Say hello to my little friend... Mr. Slots Street Name - J-Bang (Just Buy A 'Nuther Guitar) My cure for GAS - my wife asking, "Which one(s) are you selling to get that?" |
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jimagill |
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jimagill |
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I knew there was a very real possibility this thread would devolve into yet another tedious debate about 'opening up,' which was not my intent, so to
try to direct it back toward the point I was trying to make, let me clarify.
First, as several here have said, what I hear is good enough for me, too, and I'm not questioning what anyone hears. As I said, it's only they who should be doing the questioning. Second, I merely used the 'opening up' phenomenon as an exercise to illustrate to those who use their subjective opinions to style themselves an authority on matters of perception and taste how questionable such matters are when examined objectively. I could just as easily have used as examples those who say they can hear the difference between Brazilian and Indian rosewood, or why Adirondack spruce makes the best top, etc. My goal was to try to add a cautionary note to the tendency of some to promote without question their subjective experience as objective truth, and to encourage them with good reasons to, in fact, question that subjective experience. Then perhaps, we can move beyond guitar lore for a while to fresher, more interesting topics. |
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YorkshireD28 |
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jimagill wrote: No need to badmouth the posters. Personally, I think you're lucky you got any replies at all, posting a great wad of unexpurgated text like that. Yorkie
Last Edited By: YorkshireD28
06/26/09 8:22 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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kydave |
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Then perhaps, we can move beyond guitar lore for a while to fresher, more interesting topics.Say, did you hear Michael Jackson died? Oh, wait... I came here for guitar lore! Kentucky Dave's Martins: 00-28H (2006 Custom); SP000-16R (1999 Special Edition);
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jscio |
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Can you trust what you hear?
To me, the amount a guitar opens up is subjective. It seems that what I hear is totally
unrelated to what someone else may hear.
Last Edited By: jscio
06/27/09 7:25 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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Mac Mechanic |
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jimagill wrote:Thanks for pointing out our shortcomings. That's never been done here before. This forum is chock-full of interesting topics that may not fall into your definition of "guitar lore" and they are pretty easy to find. I don't see how you can say that this thread devolved into anything at all. It is mostly made up of two versions of your O. P., which is one of the longest postings I've ever seen on this forum, and maybe one or two posts taking issue with it. The problems you seem to be having with posting (losing paragraphs & URLs) sound like the sort of thing that happens if you use an browser that Yuku doesn't like (e.g., Safari). Maybe Firefox would make it easier....
Paul
I may be wrong, but I'm not far from it... |
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No457 Snowy |
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The problems you seem to be having with posting (losing paragraphs & URLs) sound like the sort of thing that happens if you use an browser that Yuku doesn't like (e.g., Safari). Maybe Firefox would make it easier.... Yep, he's probably using Safari and should select to use "bbcode" as the Post Editor in his Control Panel Preferences instead of "wysiwyg". That will fix the problem he's having. Snowy |
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scarab100 |
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Yep, he's probably using Safari and should select to use "bbcode" as the Post Editor in his Control Panel Preferences instead of "wysiwyg". That will fix the problem he's having. Thanks for the suggestion Snowy. I have suffered similar problems in the past with Safari. Just previewed this post and your suggestion works. Thanks again! Warren |
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jt4usall |
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Changing stings made my guitar "open up"!!!
Really. I changed brands and went from a lights to mediums, and it's like a different guitar. It almost cured my GAS!!! JT Martin 000-1R |
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