NEW GROWTH BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD - HOW DOES IT DIFFER FROM OLD GROWTH? - The Log Cabin - Guitars - The Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum - Message Board

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NEW GROWTH BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD - HOW DOES IT DIFFER FROM OLD GROWTH?

Author	Comment
uscmike	NEW GROWTH BRAZILIAN ROSEWOOD - HOW DOES IT DIFFER FROM OLD GROWTH?	Lead	[-]
(06/24/09 7:39 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None I recently joined the forum, and made my first two posts relative a Steve Reeves BR guitar I purchased. I thank everyone for the helpful information and kind comments on those posts. Here's the photo of the back of my Reeves, which (correct me if I'm wrong) I understand from my previous post about its "light to dark grain characteristics" is quarter sawn old growth BR. I'd like to better understand the differences between New and Old growth Brazilian Rosewood. 1. How are each defined? 2. What are the differentiating characteristics which are typically seen in the wood after it is cut and crafted into the back and sides of a finished guitar? Some photos of each to demonstrate these differences would be real helpful. Thanks! Mike Last Edited By: uscmike 06/24/09 8:12 AM. Edited 1 time.
Bruce Sexauer		#1	[-]
(06/24/09 10:33 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Old growth was planted by Nature, new growth planted by man. One struggled to survive on the forest floor, the other may have started in a nursery and been planted in neat rows with plenty of sun. One is a battle hardened survivor, the other watched a lot of TV. As it were.
pope858		#2	[-]
(06/24/09 11:12 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Old Growth Brazilian (Stumpwood) 2nd Growth Brazilian Both of these are 000 12 fret Huss and Dalton Guitars Paul "Ain't no money in poetry, that's what sets the poet free, I've had all the freedom I can stand" Guy Clark
uscmike		#3	[-]
(06/24/09 12:09 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Maybe I should have made this call before I placed my posts. I spoke this morning with Steve, the owner of Colonial Tonewoods in Barhamsville, Virginia, the source of the wood used for the back/body of my Reeves. Steve advised that the BR on my guitar is quartersawn old growth, imported between 1957 and 1963 by a company out of Norfolk, VA. He purchased a quantity of BR from this supplier at various times between 1998 - 2001. It came in the form of 1"-1 1/4" backing boards from a veneer milling operation. Said the light colored wood on my guitar is heartwood, as he always cut off the sapwood. Back and sides are matched from the same log. As an aside, he mentioned that the person who sold the wood to him had sold a tractor trailer load of old growth BR in 1982 for $50,000!
Arnoldgtr		#4	[-]
(06/24/09 8:18 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Old growth was planted by Nature, new growth planted by man. I doubt that any of the new growth BR used in guitars (so far) is from plantations. New growth does not necessarily mean planted by man....it just means that the conditions are not the same as the old forest. Once the canopy is opened from logging, the trees grow much faster. New growth BR is generally duller in color, wider-grained, with less black veining. Fully QS backs are rare, because the trees are smaller and have thicker sapwood. Landscaping is rare in new growth, but there are situations where there can be pigment figuring, particularly if the wood has the large worm holes in the heart. Some new growth BR is sonically similar to old growth, with the hardness and glassy tap tone that is expected. But some of the 'worst' new growth I have seen is not so hard, less brittle, and, understandably, not so nice sounding. The one advantage I can attribute to it is that it probably is less susceptible to cracking. In general, that less desirable new growth BR also has a plainer appearance...pale chocolate brown with little or no black veining. Unfortunately, much of the BR Martin has used in the last few years falls into that category. John
uscmike		#5	[-]
(06/25/09 10:14 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Not sure if this is a fair question, but thought I'd throw it out for opinions of those who have some experience working with old growth BR, or experience with guitars constructed of it. On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being the best), how would the BR used in my guitar pictured in the initial posting rate? Is it even fair to attempt to rate it based only on its looks?
Bruce Sexauer		#6	[-]
(06/25/09 11:10 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	8.7
BrazAd		#7	[-]
(06/26/09 4:56 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	So is this new or old growth? What are the identifying marks that tell the story? Gary
Ted Hutson		#8	[-]
(06/26/09 11:32 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That would be old growth, Gary: fully QS with no sapwood; a fair amount of veining; and hints of landscaping. It looks better than some '60s Martin BR backs I've seen. '56 000-21, quarter. Willi's bridge repair thread. My '27 00-28 repair thread. My '31 OM-18 thread.
jscio		#9	[-]
(06/27/09 5:41 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Pope858; the first back pictured is visually stunning.
pope858		#10	[-]
(06/27/09 10:25 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks jscio, not only very cool visually, but absolutely amazing sonically! Not a bad catch for an old Buffalo (NY) boy! Paul "Ain't no money in poetry, that's what sets the poet free, I've had all the freedom I can stand" Guy Clark
Howard Klepper		#11	[-]
(06/27/09 11:16 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	uscmike wrote: Not sure if this is a fair question, but thought I'd throw it out for opinions of those who have some experience working with old growth BR, or experience with guitars constructed of it. On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being the best), how would the BR used in my guitar pictured in the initial posting rate? Is it even fair to attempt to rate it based only on its looks? Mike, you aren't picking sets; you already own the guitar. What difference does it make how someone rates a photo? Your own opinion is the only one that matters now. Nice set of rosewood. I wouldn't think about putting a number on it. Enjoy your guitar.
BrazAd		#12	[-]
(06/27/09 11:24 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ted Hutson wrote: That would be old growth, Gary: fully QS with no sapwood; a fair amount of veining; and hints of landscaping. It looks better than some '60s Martin BR backs I've seen. It doesn't have the red coloring that I often see in 40s/50s/60s Martins, but I was told that it was cut 50 or 60 years ago. What is the light tan coloring streak that goes up the right side (aligned with the waist), if that's not sapwood? Gary
FoolForWood		#13	[-]
(06/27/09 12:28 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It doesn't have the red coloring that I often see in 40s/50s/60s Martins Gary, do you know what the guitar was finished with? Henk
uscmike		#14	[-]
(06/27/09 2:29 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Howard, I hear you. And believe me, I am quite happy with how my guitar turned out. It's a great sounding guitar. All I was trying to understand is what I have in terms of how the BR compares with what else is out there, or has come before in the D-28 Martin line of past that is so often discussed and held up as a benchmark. Curious more than anything, I'm finding out Brazilian Rosewood history is an interesting subject. And my guitar, particularly being the #1 BR made by Steve Reeves is part of that history.
clucking		#15	[-]
(06/27/09 3:21 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I've always wondered about these two, are they old or new growth? They are both modern brazilian rosewood Martins. The pictures don't really represent the colors well, they are both much darker and redder than the pictures make out: #1 #2 -Charlie RPCV Samoa '03-'05 ~Guitars, Tiples, Ukuleles, Charangos, a Saz, an Ud, a Rubab, a banjo, and a home-made mandolin~ Last Edited By: clucking 06/27/09 3:24 PM. Edited 1 times.
Arnoldgtr		#16	[-]
(06/27/09 7:17 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What is the light tan coloring streak that goes up the right side (aligned with the waist), if that's not sapwood? Sapwood is around the outside of the tree, so it will not have heartwood on both sides of it. There is a rare phenomenon called 'included sapwood', where the heartwood grows on the outside of sapwood, but it is rarely seen in BR. This look is characteristic of much of the landscape BR....a thick dark line separating two different shades. John
BrazAd		#17	[-]
(06/27/09 10:47 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	FoolForWood wrote: It doesn't have the red coloring that I often see in 40s/50s/60s Martins Gary, do you know what the guitar was finished with? Henk Henk, This quote is from Leo Posch in his interview with Terrance Tan a month or so ago... "Right now my finishing process consists of sealing the instrument with rubbed (french polished) shellac. Top coats with nitro lacquer. I'm not a fan of varnish because it is more difficult to repair. I think the thickness (thinness) of the finish is much more important than what the actual finish is." Gary
FoolForWood		#18	[-]
(06/28/09 6:46 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks, Gary. The two pictures show a very different color, because the first was taken in the shade and the second in direct sunlight. Direct sunlight, especially when not at high noon is warmer; more towards the red side of the spectrum. In the shade (indirect sunlight), short wave light, towards blue and UV, dominate. So a picture in the shade will typically have a (literally) cooler look. That could explain why the wood does not have the somewhat brick red cast. If the guitar was indeed finished with shellac and nitro. But I also find that kinda look on some guitars that have a more modern finish like polyurethane. Firstly, those can look slightly milky under some light angles and other conditions. And e.g. waterborne finishes don't "pop the grain" or give the wet look and darken and warm up the wood the way traditional finishes do. Especially those can have a somewhat blueish cast. Using a sealer that does pop the grain, and e.g. adding an amber toner to the finish will help to some extent. Henk Last Edited By: FoolForWood 06/28/09 6:51 AM. Edited 1 times.
BrazAd		#19	[-]
(06/28/09 2:15 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes, shellac and nitro is the finish used on this guitar. To me, tonally, it gives the best of both worlds. You get the broken-in sound of varnish plus the durability of nitro. It's tough to photograph and get true coloring that the eye sees. You're right, Henk, the first pic was in shade and the second in direct sunlight - maybe 2:00 in the afternoon, IIRC. Gary
BrazAd		#20	[-]
(06/28/09 2:15 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	- - - Last Edited By: BrazAd 06/28/09 2:18 PM. Edited 1 times.