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 Chef Bill in Florida |
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(06/14/09 10:58 AM) |
Thanks Mike!
The back feels very smooth and even, I don't detect any variation as I move across the stripes or grain. It's nice to know that this instrument is probably mahogany.
Chef Bill in Florida
000X1 - "Bonnie"; DX1 - "Clyde"; D12X1 - "Bogie"; Epiphone Sheraton II - "Bacall"; 000-15S - "Arnold" |
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FoolForWood |
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(06/14/09 12:12 PM) |
I'd put my money on sapele.
Henk |
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FoolForWood |
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(06/14/09 12:18 PM) |
BTW, here are the D-15S's at Gruhn's:
Henk |
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rmk photo |
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(06/14/09 2:55 PM) |
The Gruhn website description simply says it is "mahogany". It does not say what kind. Does Martin distinguish between Honduras mahogany &/or Sapele, or do they simply lump both of them together as "mahogany" in their literature. If you were to call Martin & give them your serial no. would they be able to tell you if it is Honduran mahogany or Sapele? Martin is usually pretty good about the specifics of the wood varieties they use, but for some reason the differentiation between Honduras mahogany & Sapele seems to be getting a bit muddy. How many times have you seen manufacturers & sellers play loose with the facts by simply listing woods as spruce, or rosewood, or mahogany without even telling you whether it is even plywood or not - let alone what kind of spruce, rosewood, or mahogany it is. A number of sellers & manufacturers even play games by referring to Sapele as African mahogany. Twenty years ago if a maker listed something as mahogany you pretty much knew that it was Honduran. Now, unless something is listed specifically by a reputable seller as Honduras mahogany, I would be very wary. |
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Steve Frost |
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(06/15/09 5:48 PM) |
Due to a number of indisputable markers, I can positively identify that wood as Select Hardwood.
There will be no charge for this service! 
BTW, how does it sound, with your fingernail in a more typical position, like in contact with the strings? Beware of psychoacoustics- despite what Bob Taylor says! |
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XBrace |
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(06/16/09 4:58 PM) |
This is a Stewmac kit I put together recently and while they describe the body material as being "mahogany", I'm pretty sure that it's
sapele.
As far as some finding sapele muddy, this little 000 has a nice sparkle to its sound. I did shift the braces forward although I believe that affects volume more than anything. However, the bass has a nice resonant bloom and the mid range and trebles are clear and distinctive. Overall if find the sapele in this guitar to have produced a really pleasing and versitle instrument. 
Andy |
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FoolForWood |
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(06/17/09 3:16 AM) |
Mmmm...... What did it smell like?
Henk |
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countrybluespicker |
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(06/17/09 8:07 AM) |
Interesting topic. Anyone know if you emailed Martin about whether your instrument was sapele or mahogany, would they tell you?
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OOO ToneFreak |
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(06/17/09 8:20 AM) |
As always, choose on the basis of which guitar plays and sounds betterTruer words were never written!!! Although the thought is often a novel concept in guitar weeniedom. Jerry |
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cb00ne |
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(06/17/09 8:25 AM) |
Bill, your lovely 000-15S is Sapele. No question in my mind. (You won't "feel" the stripes at all, by the way.) And I'd be willing to bet
that those Gruhn D-15S's are Sapele, too. The second one is less pronounced, stripe-wise, but the back is certainly Sapele, and we know from Linda
(cfmwoodbuyer) that Martin doesn't mix top/back woods on 15-series guitars.
I've played plenty of 15-series guitars, in both Mahogany and Sapele -- and tonewise, I've never noticed a difference. Now, Howard mentioned its "nails on a chalkboard" characteristics when working the wood. I've never worked with Sapele, but I can see where he's coming from. The Sapele 15-series (satin finished) guitars I've played definitely have a surface feel that's different than "genuine" Mahogany. Regular Mahogany feels "softer" or "quieter" to the touch to me (not the guitar's tone, but the feel of the wood); unglossed Sapele has a harder surface finish, and is louder if you rub your fingers (or your sleeve) across it. (Does that make sense?) I much prefer the look and feel of Sapele when it's glossed. I think it's gorgeous. - Chris 2006 000-18GE | 2001 000-15S | 2008 CEO-4R | 2006 Felix II | 1979 Silver Anniv. Strat | Big Mo M-2 Mandolin |
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FoolForWood |
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(06/17/09 9:54 AM) |
I did shift the braces forwardThe StewMac plan already has them forward. Did you move them a little extra? Nice guitar BTW. What did you finish it with? And don't both mahogany and sapele look gorgeous without the usual stain? The direct sunlight may make it seem even lighter than it is. It will darken over time, but in a beautiful way. I've always wondered why it usually gets stained. It's a shame IMO. But hey, I'm a fool for wood. Could be it was initially done to bring it closer to the rosewood darkness. (In Martin's case it replaced rosewood on style 18, for instance.) Or perhaps it's done to even out the natural differences in color, so you don't have to match sides to backs, like they do with rosewood. BTW, like mahogany, sapele has a subtle golden luster or chatoyance that the other African "mahoganies" usually lack. Henk |
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FoolForWood |
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(06/17/09 10:42 AM) |
Chris, although like you I think Bill's guitar is sapele, I have to agree with Mike that mahogany can have pretty strong banding or
interlocked grain. (Not saying you stated the opposite, mind.) Likewise, sapele without banding does exist. Interestingly, in Taylor's award winning, 1999,
wine red catalog, the guitar in the example for the 300 series (sapele) has virtually no banding. But the one in the 500 series (mahogany) has pronounced
banding. Just an example. BTW, I think we can safely assume Bob knows what wood he puts on his guitars.
And yes, sapele looks pretty nice to me, too. Apart from the luster I mentioned, the interlocked grain or banding adds interesting figuring. In fact it's not unlike curly figuring, albeit with the "curl" running accross the grain and the bands along it. If you move the wood in the light, you get a similar holografic effect. Light becomes dark and vice versa. Strangely, many of the folks that say they dislike that look do like banding across the grain (e.g. fiddleback figuring). Perhaps that has to do with tradition (plainer mahogany look on vintage guitars). Some say they are put off because sapele reminds them of veneer on doors. That, however, usually had a pretty dull and dark stain/filler with a matte finish over it. If it was real wood in the first place. Often it was fake, a reproduction of the (dulled) real thing. Although it's hard to turn back the clock, Martin for instance could still start using sapele (structurally) on higher end guitars. With a gloss finish of course, and preferably without stain. That should repair sapele's undeserved cheap image somewhat. An extra benefit is that sapele can be found as FSC wood. Henk |
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jscio |
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(06/17/09 11:47 AM) |
I've got a Masterbilt AJ-500-M that is Sapele. I buffed it out and it's gorgeous. I believe you almost have to take them on one at a time, guitar by
guitar, to make a judgement. Beyond the looks, to my tin ear, they (mahogany and sapele) sound very much alike.
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 MikeHalloran |
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(06/18/09 8:20 AM) |
I stated that I can feel the striping in the Martin 15 series when the guitar is sapele, not that I could feel it on any guitar made of the wood. One thing
nice about the San Francisco area where I live is that I get many opportunities to play lots of guitars side by side.
I have no doubt they're out there but I haven't seen an 000-15S in sapele yet. Lots of the 000-15 and D-15, yes.
Mike Halloran
'49 00-28G, '03 000C-16SGTNE, '03 000-15S, Backpacker Mandolin, '60s Style 0 uke, '67 D12-35, '75 D-35S, Cowboy X, Cowboy II (I think that's all the Martins) Many Guilds, Gibsons and Goyas |
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FoolForWood |
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(06/18/09 10:01 AM) |
Yes Mike, my first impression was just that; a first impression.
 For more certainty, we'd need much closer pictures. Even then, there are no guarantees. In some cases you would have to see the wood in
the flesh and touch, smell, etc.
Henk |
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Rod Neep |
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(06/18/09 8:20 PM) |
Some people like the look of Sapele with its stripes, others don't.
I am pretty biased in this. But that's because of historical reasons...
Back in the 1960s it was fashion here in the UK to have bathroom suites in avacado colour (yuk!) and doors made of Sapele (yuk!). Actually they had a thin veneer of Sapele with an "egg box" type interior. A Sapele door from the period... 
So whenever I see a guitar made of the same stuff I cringe. 
(But I can honestly say, having played lots of 15 series instruments, and own two of mahogany, that I can't hear a difference at all.) Rod |
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FoolForWood |
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(06/19/09 4:39 AM) |
Yup, that's what I meant in post #32.
Henk |
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billwi |
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(06/20/09 5:42 PM) |
G'day Andy,
Congratulations on your work. It looks terrific. I agree with Henk: that back is very handsome in its more natural colouring. Going against the grain, as it were, I tend to like the lighter tones, especially for the tops (not mahogany/sapele of course). So when folks celebrate sitka deepening to deep pumpkin or red spruce going golden, I rather wish it had remained like new. Gentlemen prefer blondes ?
I reckon there could be a place for a line of unstained but (lightly) glossed guitars. Staining presumably "brings out" the grain but often the grain is there for all to see anyway. Folks, come on over to the light side; it could be your destiny. Cheers, Bill
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littlewingsn |
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(06/20/09 8:01 PM) |
Alright , since you guys are on this . I have always wondered about this guitar . I have always thought of it as a nice looking hog back , but now I wonder .
Not that it matters .... it has grown on me either way , but I am still curious
Sean 
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ChazmoRocks |
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(06/20/09 8:52 PM) |
Sean, my bet is on mahogany. I've been wrong before.
Martin: 1996 HD-28
Guild: 1967 F-50R (Hoboken), 1971 F-50R NT (Westerly), 1978 G-312 NT (Westerly), 1994 JF-30-12 Bld (Westerly), 2006 F-512 (Tacoma) Taylor: 1984 655 (Lemon Grove) Ibanez: 1978 Series I Artwood AW-120, 1979 Series I AW-60 (Owari Asahi), 1980 Series I Artwood AW-75 (Owari Asahi), 1982 M310 Maple series Favilla: ~1960 C-5 Overture classical (NYC) |
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