Shipping valuable instruments--the insurer's perspective

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Fingerstyle2	Shipping valuable instruments--the insurer's perspective	Lead	[-]
(05/06/09 4:38 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Those of us who insure with Heritage got an email newsletter from them this week. Here's advice they had about shipping musical instruments. They want to cut claims, but we want to avoid having to make them ourselves and avoid having our premiums go up to pay others' claims, so I think that the company's and our interests line up pretty well. Sorry for the spacing and formatting: We estimate that over 50% of the losses paid by Heritage are the result of the shipping process. Instruments, especially wooden ones, are intrinsically delicate. When an instrument is shipped, it enters a battle zone, and casualties are much greater than when it is being played or walked down main street under the owner's arm. Regardless of which carrier is used to transport the instruments, the loss frequency, type of loss and severity remains constant. One carrier is as good or as bad as another, depending on how you look at it. *Here are some suggestions to improve the situation:* (1) *Do not depend on the insurance offered by the shipping company.* The shipping companies attempt to avoid responsibility for damages which occur during shipment, and few losses result in a fair settlement. If you examine the policy manuals and contracts of the shipping carriers, and certain legal statutes, you will understand how they avoid liability so well. If you are shipping an instrument, or have purchased one being shipped to you, make certain that functional shipment insurance is in place, written by a specialist to the musical instrument trade, but not the shipping company. Make certain it will cover not only cost of repair, but devaluation of the instrument. If your shipment is international, make certain that the coverage is broad enough to cover it. Many policies are limited to the US and Canada . Do not depend on another person or entity to insure your instrument in shipment unless you are satisfied with quality of their insurance. (2) *Packing, packing, and more packing.* While non-delivery and disappearance of a shipped package occasionally occurs, the primary loss caused during shipment is damage to the instrument. Improper or inadequate packing is the cause of many, if not most, of the losses we see. If the instrument is entering a war zone (being shipped), then it needs special protection to survive. 3) *Use Expedited or overnight shipment, but not ground shipment.* Expedited or overnight shipments produce significantly less loss activity than ground shipment. Packages should always be sent using the shortest delivery time available, and they should not be shipped on a Friday, or in such a way as to be warehoused over the weekend. (4) *Control Delivery and Shipment* - Arrangements should be made so that the package is received personally by the recipient, or their agent, and that they will be available at time of delivery. Require that the package be signed for by the recipient. Mark your address and the recipients on the carton directly, as well as on the shipping slip. (5) *Documentation of Shipment -* Retain copies of shipment receipts and sales receipts (if any). Take digital photos of the instrument prior to shipment to show condition and/or authenticity.
onewent		#1	[-]
(05/06/09 6:05 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	..thanks for posting this info..not surprised that shipping results in a lot of claims, and I'm not surprised that the shippers stack the insurance deck in their favor. It's interesting to note that Expedient or Overnight shipping results in less claims..I'd read on here, mostly, that one level of delivery is no better or worse than another. It's tough shipping guitars valued, let's say, less than 1K or so, because of the $500 deductible w/ Heritage, but it's still probably better in the long run. Nice thing, though, is if you're shipping a particularly valuable guitar, you can buy more insurance to cover just that instrument for that shipping event. Tom
jscio		#2	[-]
(05/06/09 8:33 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Great post.
Metropro		#3	[-]
(05/06/09 10:23 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	My copy of the newsletter must have gone directly to my junk folder. So thanks for posting it, David. I think the advantage of shipping overnight versus ground delivery is obvious. The less time the shipper has your guitar, the less opportunity there is to damage it. My big complaint with the shippers is the limitation they put on box sizes. The standard guitar box provides very little protection for the top of the guitar where it is most vulnerable. A larger, deeper box results in an enormous increase in shipping costs. Offering customers "insurance" that doesn't actually cover anything seems like a standard form of corporate flim-flam that has grown all too prevalent in this country. For those of you overseas, "flim-flam" means deception or fraud. The usual term is a "flim-flam artist." That means he's a fast talker, a crook and a con man. It has a really sleazy connotation. Those bogus guitar auctions on eBay are all run by flim-flam artists. Chris
photorc		#4	[-]
(05/06/09 11:44 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	onewent wrote: It's tough shipping guitars valued, let's say, less than 1K or so, because of the $500 deductible w/ Heritage, but it's still probably better in the long run. I had the neck break off a guitar in shipping recently, and chose not to file a 1K claim. Heritage has been great, and their services are so valuable, I'd rather eat the smaller claims than risk not having their insurance when I really need it, or having the premiums rise. Of course, YMMV, depending on the value of the instrument you ship. A couple of other things not mentioned here - Ellis has suggested insuring with UPS or FedEx for 2K or 5K, even though I'm covered by Heritage and we never expect the carrier to pay. His thinking is that the carrier will look a bit harder to find a missing package if they have something at risk. So I often have a sender insure with the carrier for 2K or 5K, rather than the full value of an expensive instrument, with the dealer passing the difference on to me. Robert Last Edited By: photorc 05/06/09 11:53 PM. Edited 1 times.
Tricone.bayareaguitarswap		#5	[-]
(05/07/09 12:14 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm sorry to say that I wish I saw this thread about a week ago. I had never even fathomed that one could purchase insurance to cover the shipment of high-dollar musical instruments. I recently returned a vintage Martin to a "dealer" (perhaps as Metropro described, a flim-flam artist) during the inspection period because of a wealth of issues that were missing from the description, but that's for another story. Mistake number one: I shipped it back via FedEx Ground. Note that the dealer had originally shipped it via ground service to me. I did insure it for full value, although judging by the remarks given above, I'm not holding my breath. I received a call from the dealer today stating that the guitar was received, but with major damage. Judging by the blurry pics that he emailed me, the neck was separating from the body, and there was damage to the back and sides of the guitar. Well, as the story goes, the dealer is not obligated to reimburse my money because the guitar was not in the same condition as when he sent it. As the sender, I'm responsible for filing the claim with FedEx. FedEx is due to pick-up the guitar and have their inspectors evaluate the damage, along with the packaging, obviously trying to find ways NOT to pay a claim. In the mean time, I'm out both the guitar and the cash I paid for it, not to mention the fact that I was this close to purchasing another instrument from a much more reputable dealer. Now that deal is off indefinitely, until I can recoup some of my money. I have learned a hard lesson here. Last Edited By: Tricone 05/07/09 12:23 AM. Edited 2 times.
VVC41		#6	[-]
(05/07/09 4:29 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Very timely to get the Heritage Newsletter -- I shipped a 36 D-18 yesterday and am holding my breath till it arrives safely this morning! The detail about overnight shipping is something to consider. When shipping a vintage Martin, I always use Fed Ex First Overnight -- pricey yes, but the guitar gets there by 8AM the next day. More importantly, First Overnight minimizes the number of people who handle the guitar during its transit. Vic Charlotte, NC
mylescdavis		#7	[-]
(05/07/09 5:42 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I got this newsletter yesterday, didn't think to post it - thanks, David. For what it's worth (and I'm knocking on wood furiously), I've never had a guitar damaged when it was packed properly. This covers about 100 shipments over the past ten-fifteen years. I have had guitars damaged spectacularly when not packed properly. The important thing is to keep the guitar immobile within the case, and then the case within the box or boxes. Once the guitar starts moving, it picks up momentum and that energy will create havoc when the guitar stops moving and that energy is distributed through the guitar. One nice thing about acoustics is that, while they're bigger than electrics, they're also lighter, so there's less opportunity for the guitar to flop around. But acoustics are vulnerable to top damage if something drops on the box while it's lying face up, so anything you can do (more rigid box, lots of padding, maybe a double layer of cardboard on the top inside of the box) to protect it, the better. The limitation on box sizes is a real pain for international shipments if you use USPS International, as I do to avoid excessive customs brokerage charges on the receiving end in Europe. I've started ordering custom sized boxes for shipment from the US, to maximize box size within the limitations, and to get the strongest box possible. It adds $20 to the cost, not significant, really. One interesting footnote to this conversation comes from forum member cfh, who's probably shipped and received more guitars than most of us. I'm going from memory here, but I believe he used to tell shippers to simply put a tag on the case handle and ship Fedex overnight, heavily insured. His reasoning was that, this way, everyone in the shipping chain would know what they're handling, and would be less likely to toss it from the warehouse floor into the truck. The insurance was not in case of damage, but to let everyone know it was valuable. "The good Lord might have made something better than country ham, but he never has let me taste it yet...." Senator Sam Ervin Myles Cochran
Fingerstyle2		#8	[-]
(05/07/09 5:48 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree about FedEx Priority Overnight for the reasons cited above. With regard to insurance offered by shippers, while I think the advice that Ellis gave Robert makes some sense, I'm not sure it's possible to do in some cases and it's not really insurance. I resurrected below an excerpt from an old post and slightly updated it. David ...neither UPS nor FedEx offers insurance of any kind. (In fact, in FedEx's terms of service, they say in all-caps "WE DO NOT PROVIDE INSURANCE COVERAGE OF ANY KIND.") UPS is a little more subtle. They say "When a shipper declares a value in excess of $100, it does not receive any form of insurance. Shippers desiring cargo insurance, all risk insurance, or another form of insurance should purchase such insurance from a third party." Rather than insure your guitar, they allow you (in some circumstances) to pay them to increase the dollar limits of their liability. They still have to admit liability for damage before they pay, so who is at fault matters. Unfortunately, they decide who was at fault. If your guitar is truly insured during shipping (as in through a third party), you get paid no matter who is at fault. Second, FedEx places special liability limits on certain guitars (the ones we care about most). They limit their liability to $1000 for "Guitars and other musical instruments that are more than 20 years old, and customized or personalized musical instruments." You should be able to pay for increased liability limits for newish factory guitars that aren't custom models. Here are the links to the Fed Ex and UPS terms of service: http://www.fedex.com/us/services/terms/us.html?link=4#liabilitylimits http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_12312007.pdf Go to page 36 of the UPS doc to find info on claims and limits of liability.
Tricone.bayareaguitarswap		#9	[-]
(05/07/09 11:42 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Sometimes, pictures are much better than words. Here's the box and the hard shell case, upon receipt by the buyer. FedEx Ground was the carrier. Bay Area Guitar Swap http://bayareaguitarswap.com
photorc		#10	[-]
(05/07/09 12:20 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Fingerstyle2 wrote: I agree about FedEx Priority Overnight for the reasons cited above. With regard to insurance offered by shippers, while I think the advice that Ellis gave Robert makes some sense, I'm not sure it's possible to do in some cases and it's not really insurance. David, I'm not clear on which part of Ellis' advice you think may not be possible, other than a seller not wanting to cooperate. In case I wasn't clear, we don't expect the carrier to pay anyway. I'm paying Ellis for coverage. Insuring for a lesser amount with the carrier is just something extra we do to give the carrier incentive to look for a lost package which they might not be as inclined to do if we buy no insurance from them and they have nothing at risk if the package is not found. I also want to second the value of good packing. Gruhn insists on shipping overnight, which is smart, but their instruments are also packed - so - well, that I'd rather ship one of their boxes by slow boat to China than ship most packages overnight. Ellis has said the same thing: Ship overnight, but it's the packing that really makes the difference. I have a couple of good solid cartons which I've lined with 1" rigid insulation from Home Depot or Lowe's. Besides giving physical protection, the insulation really does make a difference in cold weather. I've bought a few nice guitars with soft cases or no case at all, and shipped a good hard shell case to the seller in one of these cartons, complete with shipping labels to ship the guitar back to me on my account. I also give explicit instructions to support the neck of the guitar where it joins the body, de-tune the strings, and secure any loose objects such as capos and steels if there's any hint that the shipper is inexperienced. Tricone's guitar, however, looks like the exception - the reason we do hope for better handling with overnight. It looks like it was impaled by a forklift. From the look of the case, I don't think a plywood box would have helped. On the positive side, the carriers are much more inclined to pay when there are clear physical signs of damage to the outside of the carton. I would hope the damage was noted by the delivery person. Robert
steveswan	NEVER ship UPS or Fed Ex Ground	#11	[-]
(05/07/09 12:21 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I will only ship empty cases UPS or Fed Ex Ground. Even then it's only if I don't have any boxes small enough to ship by US Postal Service. About the bravest non-incident that I ever saw in shipping was when Chris Hillman shipped his 12 Fret Santa Cruz D to me in that infamous red Calton case about 10 years ago. He shipped it Fed Ex 3-Day from southern California to me in Kensington, CA by simply slapping a Fed Ex label on the outside of the case. He didn't even duct tape the latches to protect them! The guitar and case arrived with no sign of trouble at all. I would never suggest that this is a safe way to ship, but at least it was safer than sending anything in a well-packed box by Fed EX or UPS Ground. Fork lift tines don't care how well you've packed your instrument and case.
Tricone.bayareaguitarswap		#12	[-]
(05/07/09 12:45 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	For the rest of the story, please see this related thread: Vintage Martin Quest
Fingerstyle2		#13	[-]
(05/07/09 1:17 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm not clear on which part of Ellis' advice you think may not be possible, other than a seller not wanting to cooperate. Robert, Sorry I wasn't more clear. You had said that Ellis recommended paying FedEx or UPS for a declared value of $2K or $5K. What I meant in saying that it may not be possible to do in some cases was about FedEx and vintage guitars -- FedEx won't allow a declared value of more than $1000 for guitars over 20 years old. Still, I like the concept--even a thousand bucks of potential loss might be enough to make them work to find a lost package. David Edit--I noted in the 000-21 thread that Tricone said he had shipped a '38 00-18 via "insured FedEx Ground." Setting aside whether it's really insurance or not, it does sound like someone at FedEx allowed for a declared value higher than $1000 for a vintage guitar. I'm curious whether their agents ignored their Terms and Conditions (which are identical for Ground or Express) and secondly, whether they would accept liability for >$1000 if the higher declared value had been allowed in error. Last Edited By: Fingerstyle2 05/07/09 1:44 PM. Edited 1 times.
photorc		#14	[-]
(05/07/09 1:50 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Got it. Thanks, David. I'm hearing that they seem to be happy to take as much insurance money as you want to give them. It's only when you try to collect that they tell you of the limits. But that part is second hand info. Any first hand experience with this? Christie at Gruhn has been insuring my vintage guitars for up to $5,000 for UPS Air. At first Ellis sent her a note to confirm coverage with Heritage, but it's all among friends - Gruhn uses Heritage as well - so lately we haven't bothered with that formality. She knows we've got it covered, and only charges me for the minimal insurance. (There are advantages to being a regular customer and developing a relationship and a routine. Especially with nice people ) Robert
Tricone.bayareaguitarswap		#15	[-]
(05/07/09 1:57 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Fingerstyle2 wrote: Edit--I noted in the 000-21 thread that Tricone said he had shipped a '38 00-18 via "insured FedEx Ground." Setting aside whether it's really insurance or not, it does sound like someone at FedEx allowed for a declared value higher than $1000 for a vintage guitar. I'm curious whether their agents ignored their Terms and Conditions (which are identical for Ground or Express) and secondly, whether they would accept liability for >$1000 if the higher declared value had been allowed in error. Good question, Fingerstyle2. I did create the waybill online, so, as the customer, I was the one who inputed the value. I'll definitely keep you updated as to my claims resolution (or lack thereof). Can you tell I'm not too positive? Bay Area Guitar Swap http://bayareaguitarswap.com
hemet		#16	[-]
(05/07/09 2:25 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What about USPS. All of this has been about UPS and FEDEX. I have shipped several guitars by slowest with the mail and only one problem which they promptly paid. Actually I dont think there was a problem, just the buyer tried and got away with a claim because it was just a kit, not a completed guitar. Anyway what about US Mail?
mylescdavis		#17	[-]
(05/07/09 2:43 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	hemet wrote: What about USPS. All of this has been about UPS and FEDEX. I have shipped several guitars by slowest with the mail and only one problem which they promptly paid. Actually I dont think there was a problem, just the buyer tried and got away with a claim because it was just a kit, not a completed guitar. Anyway what about US Mail? As I mentioned up above, I use USPS whenever possible for international shipping to avoid the customs broking charges other carriers incur. It's trackable, you can do everything online, and they pick up. I've had no problems in several years of using them, although there tends to be a bit of a black hole of a few days between the time a package leaves the US and is received into the system in the foreign country (the UK and France, in my case). As far as I know, you can declare whatever value you want, although I expect the real value in the event of loss or damage would be negotiated after the fact. I've had more problems with UPS (a package entered the NJ center with one tracking number and came out about a week later with a different one, for example). I haven't used Fedex much - and the photo above isn't much of an incentive. Regardless of your carrier, the most important thing you can do is to have third-party insurance, and pack the living daylights out of the guitar. I'm probably an annoying buyer for those sellers I don't know well enough to have confidence in their packing. I send links and pdfs on how to do it, and remind them several times. "The good Lord might have made something better than country ham, but he never has let me taste it yet...." Senator Sam Ervin Myles Cochran
Tricone.bayareaguitarswap		#18	[-]
(05/07/09 2:54 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	mylescdavis wrote: I haven't used Fedex much - and the photo above isn't much of an incentive. Here's the kicker: I shipped two guitars on the same day last week. Yesterday, I received emails or calls from both recipients. Yes, the contents of both packages were damaged! Thank you, FedEx. Needless to say, I'm seriously thinking of limiting future purchases or sales of guitars to my locality. Bay Area Guitar Swap http://bayareaguitarswap.com
steveswan	Fed Ex Ground vs. the "real" Fed Ex	#19	[-]
(05/07/09 2:55 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Fed EX Ground is taken to the same counter as you would Fed Ex air shipments. That is where the similarity ends. Subcontractors take the ground shipments any way that that they can by the cheapest (and less safe) way. It's okay to ship school books or cast iron skillets with this method, but nothing fragile of any significant value is safe. I'm in full agreement with Myles about the US Postal Service. They are great and pretty much trouble-free.
Fingerstyle2		#20	[-]
(05/07/09 3:12 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Since I don't do much buying or selling these days, this is mostly of spectator interest to me now. However, I've shipped or received probably 30 vintage guitars over the last 15 years or so, when selling, buying, or getting repairs done. For anything worth more than $5K or so, I've always used FedEx Overnight or Priority Overnight (UPS overnight just once). They've all arrived on time, I could track them every step of the way, and I've never had one that even looked like the carton had been handled roughly. David

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Shipping valuable instruments--the insurer's perspective

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