Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (om45dlx) — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:59:28 PST

I've used the same old pressure cooker since the 1970's (working as a tech in a folk music store). I've always used a long hose, with a couple of loops in it to collect water. The flask or other collector is obviously an improvement, but I actually add water to the joint at times by letting the loops flatten out a bit. I wear glasses and gloves; highly recommended.

Harmony guitars - I've taken apart many 165's and 162's, and have found that letting water sit in the dovetail joint for a couple of hours before applying the steam has made the process easier for me. I've taken apart a bunch of Martins, but never tried the pre-soak on those - too much perceived risk I guess.

I've not encountered much finish blush - lucky I guess...

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (Blue in VT) — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:36:55 PST

Thanks man...I pick some up this weekend....I see now that you mentioned that before...sorry for the repeat.

Blue

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (Arnoldgtr) — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 16:29:26 PST

I assume ya'll are saying that a cold tube makes for condensation and there fore fore spitting and water coming out rather than steam...is that right?

Yep. I stick the end of the hose in an olive jar while it is heating up. That captures the water until it stops spitting.

ok...what type of hose should I use?

5/16" automotive fuel hose.

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (Blue in VT) — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:48:14 PST

So it seems from several of the other posts that getting a tube length that is workable but not too long is key...I assume ya'll are saying that a cold tube makes for condensation and there fore fore spitting and water coming out rather than steam...is that right? So something between 2-3 feet that is allowed to heat up before inserting the needle.

ok...what type of hose should I use?

Blue

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (bryankimsey) — Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:16:55 PST

gtrdoc wrote:
. I also use a contraption ...

We are the Borg. You will be assimilated.

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (gtrdoc) — Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:59:45 PST

I tried a Krupps coffee machine but found it lacking. It did have a steam valve control but did not work very well. It was either blasting...or none at all. Like Jim and David mentioned it ran out of steam on stubborn joints and lack of a good pressure control, it would scald the lacquer. I quickly went back to the old pressure cooker. I like a nice steady easy stream of steam...no blasting! ;o). I also use a contraption that will shoot compressed (cold) air right where I want it when steam starts to escape. I haven't had to touch up finish from neck removal for a long time....knock wood. Each cooling hose has a valve at the manifold. And I just open the valve(s) where needed. I got this idea from Frank Ford and added the valves as it will use a LOT of air with them all open. I tried the water trap with the Krupps machine but haven't used one with the pressure cooker. Best...Dennis

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (David Collins) — Sun, 29 Mar 2009 16:44:33 PST

An espresso pot is a pressure pot, with the hot plate built in. The differences are essentially the valve, the capacity, and the heat control (not temperature, but heat). Some espresso makers really suck for this, others are better. I used to use a pressure pot because it seemed the espresso makers just couldn't put out the heat to keep the steam hot and steady. Some also couldn't hold enough water to allow for the more troublesome joint. I've tried a couple espresso machines and steam carafes, and finally came across one at a junk shop that I really like. I have no idea who it's made by, but it's a big steel pot that holds plenty of water, and has plenty of heat. Wish I could find another one.

I've never used the flask, but I do use a short hose, and let steam run through it for a few minutes to thoroughly heat the hose before sticking it to the joint. The hot hose needs wrap or a handle, but heating it up nicely does keep most of the...

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (vibratingstring) — Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:56:09 PST

Blue,

I have my daily use espresso machine with the little pipe on the side for foaming the lattes. I can force the steam out that little pipe...I squeeze a flexible tube onto that. When the steam comes out, it is spitting water for the first couple of minutes, then it gets "dry" (not really dry, just not spitting....afterall, it is steam). I do have to clear the tube of colleted liquid water every couple of minutes by removing the needle from the neck and lowering the needle end down to the floor for a few seconds....the water runs out. It takes 5-8 minutes to soften everything up for the neck to come off. The flask water trap sounds like an improvement, but I suspect that the water trap has to be near the neck insertion needle to work properly.

Larry
(not a luthier)

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (onewent) — Sun, 29 Mar 2009 13:44:16 PST

..thanks Charlie..I'll look forward to that , and check for Dan's book .. must have been a great experience working with him for 4 years! tom

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (charlieguitarly) — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 23:27:47 PST

Hi Tom (onewent),
I've never actually seen the book or video where Dan Erlewine talks about me developing this moisture trap idea. I guess it's my 15 minutes of fame. I get calls from people all over the country needing help to get the thing to work right. And a surprising number of people have mentioned to me about seeing me talked about in Dan's book. This has been going on since the early nineties so it might be in Dan's first or at least an early book. I was Dan's apprentice from 1976-1980 in Michigan until I took off for Oregon where I've been since. That's why he knew about this idea. I'd mentioned it to him one time when we were talking on the phone as I remember. I still use the same pressure cooker and flask I put together in the very early eighties. I've had to replace the surgical tubing a couple of times though. The rig is not much to look at but it gets the job done. Maybe I can get the computer guy at the store...

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (Arnoldgtr) — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 19:37:00 PST

I use a small pressure cooker that was bought at a flea market for $1. The hose I use is 5/16" (8mm) automotive fuel hose, which survives the heat quite well, and is dirt cheap (standard hose, not the high pressure fuel injection hose). The hose is relatively short (25") which allows it to heat up quickly. That means that there is little or no water spitting out, once the hose gets hot all the way to the end.
I use a football needle, but I drilled the end out so the steam would come out better in tight situations. Sometimes the side hole can be occluded, especially if the gap between the dovetail and the block is small or filled with glue.
I have found that 1/2" of water in the bottom of the pressure cooker produces enough steam to remove several necks, and it heats up in about the same amount of time it takes to heat the fingerboard tongue with a 250-watt heatlamp.
This setup has worked great for over 20 years, and well over 1000 neck resets. I have...

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (jbbancroft) — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 18:25:06 PST

A pressure cooker is a much better steamer than the expresso outfit. Why? If you get a stubborn neck, the expresso unit will run out of steam fast, the pressure cooker can go for a long time, depending how much water you put in.
Water w/ steam can be a problem, but only a minor one, from my experience.

Jim

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (Buck49) — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 17:08:33 PST

Hey Charlie, isn't dry steam 'smoke'? ;-)

Dry steam is plain old steam and wet steam is steam with a bunch of water spatters in it. Those are technical descriptions, of course.

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (bryankimsey) — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:18:18 PST

I'm not a big fan of espresso machines for neck resets. Pressure cooker for me, thank you!

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (onewent) — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 15:37:43 PST

Hey Charlie, isn't dry steam 'smoke'? ;-)
I'd never heard of this set up, but I'm interested..can you point me to a source to rig something like this up? ..I have the Erlewine neck set video and it's not covered in there, unless I slept through that part .. thanks for help, and good luck Blue in Vt.. .. Tom

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (Blue in VT) — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 14:51:19 PST

Thanks for the great advice and tips everyone!! I found an oline manual for my machine yesterday and it looks like I might need to find something to block up the filter holder so I only get steam from the nozzle and not through the coffe part....shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

I really appreciate the comments on procedure....I have the Dan E. video and while its intimidating in someways...those guys make it look so easy in others...I'm finally ready to risk the health and well being of one of my guitars to get this ball rolling.

Thanks again!

Blue

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (Buck49) — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 14:45:09 PST

Charlie, I saw Dan's unit with the flask, and liked it. It's important for everybody to note that if you are going to do this, you must use a scientific grade Ehrlenmeyer flask, and not some handy bottle. A bottle could blow up and you could get hurt. My banjo player is a chemistry instructor so I have a good source for scientific glass, but if it's hard for you to find, don't shortcut it! It's a safety matter.

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (charlieguitarly) — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 13:43:10 PST

I made a moisture trap using an Ehrlenmeyer (SP?) flask, rubber stopper, and two glass tubes. Wet steam, dry steam out. I use surgical tubing for connectors. This is detailed more in one of Dan Erlewine's repair books or videos. I get about one call a year from people wanting to debug it.

Charlie

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (Buck49) — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 09:48:39 PST

buy some beckol from stu mac to remove 'blush' from steam..it works

Not only that, but the expresso gives you a real added lift in the morning!

so I think I'm going to explore the old pressure cooker route. I've heard that there's less pressure, therefore less water injected into the joint.

I use the old pressure cooker I've used for over 20 years. There is less pressure, more liesurely work, but the steam gets very "wet" if you have too much water in the pot. I work at my own pace, and I tend to give the joints a few days to dry before I do any more on them. I think I get a better job that way. But my customers all know I'm not the fastest guy around anyway.

Re: Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (onewent) — Sat, 28 Mar 2009 09:07:09 PST

Blue, I was where you are about two years ago..my thoughts on what a rookie's learned after about a dozen neck sets:

*for simplicitys sake, I bought the stu mac needle and hose and they work fine

*5/64th drill bit makes a nice small hole in the fret slot, easy to hide when finished (grind or buy the specialty fret nippers and use heat to remove fret, chips happen!)

*while drilling, hit the 'pocket' by watching the sawdust, it will either end, or change color, and you'll actually feel the pocket when you hit it

*my espresso maker has a 'steam/coffee' selector, so I didn't have to modify

*be prepared to use two hose clamps to secure hose over the steam arm, and I tighten w/ a small socket wrench for both speed and strength

*I clamp the espresso maker to a chair next to my workbench for safety .. don't want it to tip while needle in guitar neck

*set up some system/method of...

Espresso machine--> neck steamer conversion?

feeds@kickapps.com (Blue in VT) — Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:26:58 PST

Howdy all!

I just stumbled into an espresso machine at a garage sale this weekend for $2 bucks and I snatched it up to convert to a neck steamer for some repairs that I have been considering for a couple of months now. I have several old Harmony flat tops to practice one and Now I'm ready to give neck reseting a go....

Anyway so my question is...what mods do I need to do to my machine to get it ready....On Frets.com frank mentions that he plugs up the coffe part of his machine to...can some one give me more details on the how best to do this....now I'm off to find some radiator hose and socer ball needle...

Thanks

Blue